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£17,250

I think Mull and DV are broadly right. Having actually had that much money to spend on a source a few months ago, I didn't even bother considering an LP12, because the suspension is fundamentally flawed IMO.
If it sounds this good with a "fundamentally flawed" suspension, imagine how good it would sound without this crushing inadequacy!
 
I think TPA mentioned the 911 first, and you could say there is so much fundamentally wrong with hanging the engine behind the rear wheels with the classic Porsche. But no one will deny that a modern 911 is a thoroughly great drive and much better that the original. Whether it or the latest Linn is worth their respective asking prices is up to the buyer/beholder.

I like my LP12 and a gently used 911 is still on my wish list.

James, you are clearly a man of impeccable taste with cars - I am concerned that this is a consequence of our misguided appreciation of LP12s.

With this in mind we should probably commit to keeping our LP12s in case an alternative leads to a path in which a Trabant beckons. Dangerous business discussing turntables :D
 
I totally agree with this having owned a Linn (lingo 1 era) and comparing it side by side with an Orbe, the Orbe was better.

http://zstereo.co.uk/2014/10/08/michell-orbe-se/......

"What I really love about the Orbe is that it’s so great at the price. I regularly encounter £10,000 turntables that aren’t really that much better than the Orbe, if at all. It’s easily on a par with every £5,000 deck I’ve heard, yet costs far less. It’s the same point you could make about the Gyro; one has to wonder why Michell has barely put its prices up in the past couple of decades?Overall then, this is a brilliant ‘affordable high end’ turntable; hook it up to a half-decent arm and cartridge and you’ll struggle to hear vinyl done better"

I ran Orbe/SME V side by side with an LP12/Lingo/Ekos for a year. Both had Troika's in. Fag packet between them and the Orbe had higher re-sale value so it went.
 
If it sounds this good with a "fundamentally flawed" suspension, imagine how good it would sound without this crushing inadequacy!

Indeed so go and listen to modern none suspension decks at a similar price and you'd be amazed. As I have already mentioned mine is maintenance free, doesn't suffer from footfall and is not balanced on springs.

What really amazes me is the silence between tracks unless the LP is faulty. I have old LPs going back a long way and played on a variety of record players and I am sometimes caught out when I hear silence after a track so get up to see if the record has finished or check that the amps are working! Its really uncanny. And of course this low noise floor gets a lot more of the music out of the groove.

Cheers,

DV
 
As it happens, I've listened to a fair number of non-suspended decks. Still prefer my old orange box. Mine sits happily on its Mana wallshelf so immune from footfall and having been set up by a good dealer it's never "gone out of tune", never understood why people think they do. But then we're going over old ground. Again...
 
I can't quite see what the problem is about the price. There are many other products that also sell for many, many multiples of their production cost. High end watches, any number of luxury cars, cocaine and cat shit coffee spring to mind.

There are obviously enough people willing to shell out the cash or Linn would be flogging them out at a couple of grand or so.

If you don't think it's worth the money there are plenty of alternatives out there, or if it has to be a LP12 then there are plenty of vintage LP12s out there at a fraction of the new price, not to mention non-Linn upgrades at a similar fraction of the equivalent official item price.
 
I can't quite see what the problem is about the price. There are many other products that also sell for many, many multiples of their production cost. High end watches, any number of luxury cars, cocaine and cat shit coffee spring to mind.

There are obviously enough people willing to shell out the cash or Linn would be flogging them out at a couple of grand or so.

If you don't think it's worth the money there are plenty of alternatives out there, or if it has to be a LP12 then there are plenty of vintage LP12s out there at a fraction of the new price, not to mention non-Linn upgrades at a similar fraction of the equivalent official item price.

Ah Kopi Luwak a most delicious drink. Don't forget that it has to be collected by hand and then washed. Eiderdown is also collected from the ducks nests by hand and is thus also very expensive. In these cases you can see why you are paying more. The discussion about Linn is that its a 44 year old flawed design that has been tweaked at very high cost rather than the flawed design itself addressed. For a similar price you can get much better performance with a modern design. I can see why my record player costs so much with a carbon fibre tone arm and sapphire bearings. Same with a watch or any other expensive item you can see where the money has gone.

Cheers,

DV
 
Cat poo coffee is farmed these days, most watches are based on decades old movement designs that may or may not receive some enhancement/blinging. Obviously there are very low volume statement pieces, but don't kid yourself that a £20k Rolex costs more than a grand in parts and labour, probably a lot less, and it still doesn't keep time as well as a quartz movement watch that sells for £50.

These supposed luxury brands will charge what people will pay, Linn has positioned themselves alongside the likes of Rolex etc, so there's no surprise at their pricing policy. In fact in some markets, if a supposedly luxury item isn't massively overpriced, it doesn't sell. Just the way it is, flawed or not.
 
the suspension is fundamentally flawed IMO.

You're playing LP and the fundamental flaw you decide to pick on is a suspension? The whole bang chute is fundamentally flawed FFS - that's the point.
 
I doubt that many people are familiar with the latest SE spec version of the deck, it's a very different animal to other versions. I can only really compare it's signature against a good streamer but it's a very far cry from a Valhalla/Ittok or Lingo deck thats for sure.

I remember when digital first started and the balance between sources was often quite marked, today a high spec LP12 has a very similar balance, that says a lot about how the resolution and accuracy of the player has improved.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, people should just use whatever floats their boat for whatever reason. Some people spend that sort of money on cables, good luck to them. All replay systems are compromises so just choose your flavour to suit your budget and preferences.

Aside from which I don't think Linn have ever set their stall out to be a budget outfit.

Agree with others. A very good post, which also happens to lend weight to the argument that the 'traditional' Linn is a coloured and flawed design. It was IIRC considered to nicely balance the rather shrill performance of NAIM. A bit of synergy going on there. In fact one of the first decent set ups I heard was a friends LP12 Lingo/Ittok with 32.5/140. It was the best thing I'd heard at the time, but I soon found better for the same dosh.

Incidentally, ISTR that the Roksan Xerxes after which I once lusted, was criticised for sounding 'too CD like'. Too prophetic might be more accurate.

I know that people have a lot of loyalty and emotion invested in their beloved Linns. For a long time I too allowed myself to be convinced that my LP12/Cirkus/Lingo1/Ittok LVIII Mk2/Dynavector 17D2 was the best I was likely to get at the price. However, I finally got so tired of not enjoying vinyl that I flogged it and bought a s/h Gyro with Orbe platter and an Audiomods arm. It also came with an AT 33PTG cartridge, which is not something I'd normally have sought out. But, the combination is more natural and clean sounding than the Linn, by a country mile. There are still a couple of minor issues with the arm which will, I hope improve things even further once sorted.

And yes, of course, people should use their 'hard earned', to buy whatever they like. I just wish the Linn Faithful would stop with the 'Linn can do no wrong and beats everything else forever' cobblers.

Its a wooden box with springs in it. It's a nicely proportioned and finished wooden box, but inside is really nothing much.

Mull
 
I think turning the LP12 into a f*ing CD player was a brilliant move - especially when Linn would like you to squirt the output into a dac now. Bit of a tribute to the old deck though, you can pretty much tune it to sound how you like.

It might be a wooden box with nowt much inside but then the only bits that matter are a motor and three bearings - and two of them are in the arm. Linn bearings have always been good but if you want a better turntable/arm, find better bearings.
 
I know that people have a lot of loyalty and emotion invested in their beloved Linns. For a long time I too allowed myself to be convinced that my LP12/Cirkus/Lingo1/Ittok LVIII Mk2/Dynavector 17D2 was the best I was likely to get at the price. However, I finally got so tired of not enjoying vinyl that I flogged it...
Mull

Standard sub-chassis?

For all the goodness of the rest of that setup, the standard sub would have held it back in the stone age. I use an AI Sole on an otherwise standard old pre-cirkus LP12 with a Basik arm, and the uplift is in major degrees of fundamental.
 
I'm glad you enjoy it!

And it further confirms the 'fundamental design flaw' argument.

Thing is, there are a million (well.. a lot of.. :) ) 'solutions' out there. Carbon Fibre ( and IIRC, Aerolam) subchassis, the old Pinnk Linnk DC motor-topplate jobby, others with a smaller corner placed arm board. Different armboards, motors, top plates etc., etc., etc., ad - nauseam. I simply couldn't be bothered with the whole 'faff' any more so went for a total change which I haven't regretted one bit. It took me a couple of hours to completely strip, clean, oil and rebuild the Gyro, just for my own peace of mind. It's just common sense, no mystery or tweakery.

Furthermore, the funds raised from selling the LP 12/Lingo and the Ittok, paid for the Gyro/Arm Cartridge combo with a few £hundred to spare, plus I now have a spare high qualiity MC in reserve. :)

Mull
 
I think turning the LP12 into a f*ing CD player was a brilliant move - especially when Linn would like you to squirt the output into a dac now. Bit of a tribute to the old deck though, you can pretty much tune it to sound how you like.

It might be a wooden box with nowt much inside but then the only bits that matter are a motor and three bearings - and two of them are in the arm. Linn bearings have always been good but if you want a better turntable/arm, find better bearings.

By that logic, you just need a plank, or a lump of metal with a couple of holes in it, high quality main bearing and arm of your choice and you're off...

Kuzma?

But then I think you might be ignoring a few other well documented issues which are natural artefacts of the usual record playing system. Arm tube/wand resonances, motor noise/vibration, and a whole plethora of alleged (and probable) issues with vibration emanating from the physical relationship between stylus/record/platter etc.

Also, whilst we're on the subject of Linn bearings and the Linn approach to marketing....

I well recall the 'deletion' of the £600 ish Ittok LVIII Mk 2 from the Linn catalogue. Early 90s I think. To replace it in the 'heirarchy', they simply repainted the ( previously approx £180) Akito, put in 'better' bearings and hiked the price to £500. (Now £1500 I believe)

Nice!

Mull
 
It's funny how a lot of these threads end up comparing hifi with cars and the like. Everything is subjective, but none more so than these areas. Maybe watches.
I have an old Rolex which would buy me a top spec. LP12, and it doesn't even tell the time terribly well (a few seconds a day) but I like it, and it gives me pleasure when I wear it.
Maybe function doesn't come into it. Is that what's meant by 'lifestyle'?

By the way, I'm more than happy with my LP12 - nothing makes me want to hear music more, so that's priceless as far as I'm concerned. Life is short.
 
I'd be interested to know if there are many (or, indeed, any) buyers of the top LP12 rather than folk doing as I've done - I bought my LP12 in 1980 and have upgraded it piece by piece in the intervening years, occasionally buying new but more often taking advantage of secondhand or exdem marketplaces.
It's quite possibly the only turntable (that I'm aware of, anyway) that you can do this with. Others may have replaceable bits n bobs, but surely not to the extent of this one.

Mick
 
You're playing LP and the fundamental flaw you decide to pick on is a suspension? The whole bang chute is fundamentally flawed FFS - that's the point.

Breathe in... This isn't really an analogue/digital debate, it's a debate about whether the LP12 can hold its head up with other decks at a very, very high price point. Having owned more than one over the decades, hanging the subchassis from three springs just isn't a very good way to do things in my experience.

If you think no deck is worth that much because the medium is a complete theoretical car crash, then be my guest, but I wouldn't agree.
 
Mmm. Does the LP12 hold it's head up with other decks at a very, very high price point?

The answer is yes, albeit it needs high heels!
 
Standard sub-chassis?

For all the goodness of the rest of that setup, the standard sub would have held it back in the stone age. I use an AI Sole on an otherwise standard old pre-cirkus LP12 with a Basik arm, and the uplift is in major degrees of fundamental.

Sage words Kind Sir ! Many more will agree with you.

Regards.

John R
 
Breathe in... This isn't really an analogue/digital debate, it's a debate about whether the LP12 can hold its head up with other decks at a very, very high price point. Having owned more than one over the decades, hanging the subchassis from three springs just isn't a very good way to do things in my experience.

The issue is not hanging a subchassis from springs, but the failure to mount the motor on the subchassis. I am quite certain, with modern motors, the LP12 would be significantly improved by a redesign incorporating the motor on the sub-chassis.

If you think no deck is worth that much because the medium is a complete theoretical car crash, then be my guest, but I wouldn't agree.

I would challenge whether spending a lot more actually produces better engineering which solves the problem better. In most cases it does not.
 


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