Van Gelder and 100 ways to skin a cat

Rudy Van Gelder benefits from a fair amount of hero worship in the jazz world. People talk of the Blue Note sound, and of RVG's role in that, which is true; there really is a Blue Note sound, and much of what we hear really is due to RVG's recording and production brilliance.
I wonder if we hear too much of RVG (and Alfred Lion) and if this sometimes obscures what the musicians are really doing. Listening to the various versions of Somethin’ Else that have passed through my hands (currently a brand new RVG remaster on 180gm vinyl from Toshiba-EMI’s BN 65th anniversary series), it is really amazing just how much influence a dab of EQ here and there can have… It’s also clear that to get the BN sound, a fair amount of musical information had to be thrown away: on a non-EQ, non compression 45rpm pressing of Autumn Leaves, for example, Sam Jones’ bass growls and Miles’ trumpet spits metallic harmonics that add bite to his playing. The music is looser and sharper (and also “bigger”) than “cool” jazz has a right to be. It isn’t cool jazz anymore; it is the raw material from which Miles will evolve his modal revolution.
Listen to a Toshiba-EMI standard pressing from the 80s, and the sound is cultured, smooth and cool. The track loses the wildness of the 45rpm pressing, but in the process becomes too laid back, too close to easy listening as the bass is EQed to a warm pulse and the cymbal hash (along with the brass harmonics of the frontline) gently eased off.
The new RVG remaster pulls in the bass and tones down the top even further – while pushing the overall treble balance forward; it also mucks about with the L/R balance, pulling the whole ensemble further between the speakers. This combined with the treble boost brings the solos further to the front and gives a feeling that players are moving to the centre to play their solos – something that does not occur on stereo pressings to my knowledge. The result is radically different from the other two: Autumn Leaves has now become a muscular, almost proto hard bop, workout, shorn of the beautiful “golden glow” and much of the introspection of the other pressings. What I suspect is that RVG is trying to recreate a dynamic pseudo-mono version.
To my mind this works quite well on the more traditionally hard bop recordings (Silver, Mobley, Dorham etc), and does increase the sense that they are playing together, but now I’ve heard something of what is really on the master tape, I realise… there are a hundred ways to skin a hep cat…

Rudy Van Gelder benefits from a fair amount of hero worship in the jazz world.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, prayer mat is on order and will be oriented to point directly at the legendary man’s studio in New Jersey ASAP.

Listening to the various versions of Somethin’ Else that have passed through my hands (currently a brand new RVG remaster on 180gm vinyl from Toshiba-EMI’s BN 65th anniversary series), it is really amazing just how much influence a dab of EQ here and there can have… It’s also clear that to get the BN sound, a fair amount of musical information had to be thrown away: on a non-EQ, non compression 45rpm pressing of Autumn Leaves, for example, Sam Jones’ bass growls and Miles’ spits metallic harmonics that add bite to his playing. The music is looser and sharper (and also “bigger”) than “cool” jazz has a right to be. It isn’t cool jazz anymore; it is the raw material from which Miles will evolve his modal revolution.
Listen to a Toshiba-EMI standard pressing from the 80s, and the sound is cultured, smooth and cool. The track loses the wildness of the 45rpm pressing, but in the process becomes too laid back, too close to easy listening as the bass is EQed to a warm pulse and the cymbal hash (along with the brass harmonics of the frontline) gently eased off.

Click to expand...

Thanks to some superb behind the scenes international record swapping I have the opportunity to compare two of the cuts Joel describes with my earlier US copy. Here is the pile:



Left to right my original copy, a 1966-ish ‘Liberty’ pressing, deep-groove label with RVG’s stamp in run-off. Next up is the 80s Toshiba pressing, and finally the Daiichi-Kateidenki Audio Members Club un-eq’d 45 cut of Autumn Leaves.

The Toshiba 80s cut: This really good example of a recent Blue Note, it does the job very well indeed, and were there nothing to contrast and compare against it is perfectly acceptable.

The DAM Club 45rpm cut: This thing is awesome, there is a level of detail that really jumps out at you, yet the eq is so different that it actually makes the music work differently. It is much brighter which for me has the effect of the whole track being driven by the drum kit metalwork. The B side feature two tracks from Herbie Hancock’s Maiden Voyage that take my recent 180g Blue Note copy out and shoots it dead. This one is a no-brainer. Autumn Leaves is really complex, and I still don’t quite know what I think.

The 60s Liberty cut: This really sounds like a great vintage jazz album should, it is far warmer than either of the other pressings and has more weight to the bass, far less emphasis to the top of the kit (but it is still very much there). The thing that strikes me is that there is a sense of total symmetry between the instruments, Miles / Coltrane / Blakey are all totally balanced against one another and your mind settles on the musical interplay, not on the sound aspects. It is a lovely sounding LP having a real 60s ‘valve cut’ feel with an amazing sense of believability to the brass in particular - it has the 'golden glow' Joel describes by the bucket load.

One thing that has recently occurred to me is whether RVG deliberately recorded bright with the actual intention of pulling the top back at mastering – it was a recognised technique to loose tape hiss in pre-noise reduction days. This would explain the brightness of the 45rpm cut, though in no way dilutes its value – it is a truly superb insight to how the great man worked as I’m certain it represents very well what is actually on the original three track master.

The problem with collecting Blue Note is that original ‘deep-groove’ 47th Street pressings are prohibitively expensive, over 100 quid a throw for mint examples of many titles, my late 60s US Liberty cut is probably worth 50 quid or so – not an original pressing, but seen by many as the next best thing. So which to buy? I have to admit that I simply buy what is available, I would prefer to own an album now than wait until exactly the right pressing comes up in the right condition at a price I can afford.

So is RVG a god like genius? IMHO yes without question, the man is to jazz what George Martin, Tony Visconti and Martin Hannett are to rock – he had the ability to encapsulate an era in sound – Blue Note records magically transport the listener back to the golden age of jazz, the sound has as much style, ingenuity and integrity as the phenomenal cover art and is a key part of the experience.

Tony.

In my opinion recent RVG remasters are to be avoided. These lovely new Toshiba vinyl releases are in Ray's but are from the digital sources. Earlier Toshiba's are better to my ears but King records are simply the best. My rule of thumb is that the more popular the record the worse the later pressings. Thats why Liberties of the unsung records sound so good.

Joel you have described exactly what I love to get from recorded jazz the loosesness and spitting brass that is so clearly there in live music. MIles is difficult for hifi boffins in my view because he has a spitty and often fragile, cracked sound (compare with Clifford Brown eg). The piano on Something Else is appalling no?

John

Something Else ...New York USA pressing on the deck

Earlier Toshiba's are better to my ears but King records are simply the best.

Click to expand...

What are the King pressings? Japanese?

I've got quite a few of the French DMM cuts, which are pretty variable but usually very good, the 70s dark blue on blue label pressings which are also good, the 180g EMI pressings which I find a little cold and sterile, the 180g connoisseur pressings which tend to be ok, probably better than the EMIs (though the connoisseur CDs are bloody awful IMHO) and a couple of much older Liberty pressings of which the 60s Somthin Else is by far the best (it is truly stunning) and also a couple of Japanese pressings which are seriously good. I also have a unidentified copy of ‘A swingin affair’ by Dexter Gordon which is a 180g cut but definitely not the EMI or connoisseur pressings and it is bloody awesome – I suspect it might be a Classic Records or equivalent audiophile job, it really is superb.

Tony.

After extensive listening, I feel confident in saying that the new Toshiba vinyl is from the same source as the RVG 24bit CD remasters. This doesn't work for Somethin' Else IMO, but for Hank Mobley's Workout it is interesting. As I said before, RVG seems to be a deliberately attempting to recapture something of the BN mono sound, but in stereo. That said, I'll take a 70s or 80s Japanese pressing over the new series everytime.

I think Alfred Lion was still at the controls during the early part of the Liberty era, which may help account for the quality of those pressings.

One thing that has recently occurred to me is whether RVG deliberately recorded bright with the actual intention of pulling the top back at mastering – it was a recognised technique to loose tape hiss in pre-noise reduction days.

Click to expand...

I think you may well be onto something there. Another really interesting point is how much better from a technical point of view Maiden Voyage is.

Brightness is a criticism levelled at the Toshiba-EMI pressings. I have heard people state a preference for King Records over Toshiba-EMI before, and the Kings I have all sound wonderful, although they do tend to be rarer than Tosh-EMI (BTW, Tony, did you get my last email - I ramble on about the King pressings in that...). However, there are several varieties of Tosh-EMI pressing, including the limited edition "initial press" series with the yellow sticker on the cover. These are limited editions (aren't they all...) made using original Westrex 3D-II cutting heads and amps. Toshiba-EMI reckoned they got pretty close with these.

The difficulty often comes from sorting out which series pressing you're getting. This is where the obi can be really useful. King Records (otherwise famous for their Enka and Japanese Imperial Army song series) had the original rights in Japan to BN, which they kept through the 1970s until (I'm guessing here) the original contract expired. By this time, Tosh-EMI had inherited the Japan rights through EMI and had also begun pressing their versions of the BN catalogue.


This frequently leads to multiple versions of the same record on different labels and in different series. An interesting situation to say the least.

Joel you have described exactly what I love to get from recorded jazz the loosesness and spitting brass that is so clearly there in live music. MIles is difficult for hifi boffins in my view because he has a spitty and often fragile, cracked sound (compare with Clifford Brown eg). The piano on Something Else is appalling no?

Click to expand...

That's really my point. The RVG and BN sound really imposes itself on the music. Because they were in sympathy with the musicians, I feel this works a lot of the time, but there are cases where perhaps another approach would have been better. The BN sound is organised, controlled and beautifully warm, but the music is not always like that...

The piano sounds like the worst overdub in history TBH. It's famously awful, which is a shame, because Hank Jones' playing is quite superb. That said, once you get used to it, the boxiness imparts a certain charm, and a strong atmosphere.

Now on deck Mal Waldron's Mal-4 on a stunning (if I say so myself) Victor mono pressing. This is a more-or-less unplayed white label I picked up for about 3 quid last week and the music is gorgeous with hints of Debussy and Harlem stride.

Van Gelder also did some great work for Impulse in the mid - sixties. My '97 MCA/GRP heavy vinyl re-issue of Trane's Live At The Village Vanguard Again with Pharaoh is awesome and I recently paid fourteen quid for an original HMV mono issue of Sonny Rollins On Impulse! which IMO is state of the art. While on the subject of legends don't forget Ray DuNann's work for Contemporary. Art Pepper's Living Legend is special. Art ends his sleeve note with this :-

"I just play the way I feel - like I did on this album. If I get outside it's because I feel outside, and if I feel funky, thats the way I'm going to play. The main thing is to swing and be honest."

Kind of sums it up.

dave

That's really my point. The RVG and BN sound really imposes itself on the music. Because they were in sympathy with the musicians, I feel this works a lot of the time, but there are cases where perhaps another approach would have been better.

Click to expand...

I love the imposition of this character onto the sound – it places the recordings into an particular and very special era. When I hear a genuinely superbly recorded modern jazz LP it somehow lacks this vibe and identity. As an example I’d hate to hear the Beatles Revolver or Joy Division’s Unknown Pleasures recorded by say Naim or Linn as they would do it ‘straight’ and ‘accurate’ and totally loose all the identity and character. As I mention above I see RVG as a real producer like George Martin, Hannett or Visconti etc – he didn’t just record, he created the sound of an era.

The piano sounds like the worst overdub in history TBH. It's famously awful, which is a shame, because Hank Jones' playing is quite superb. That said, once you get used to it, the boxiness imparts a certain charm, and a strong atmosphere.

Click to expand...

I read somewhere that RVG was not that partial to spending shed-loads of cash on new mics and tended to stick the cheapo on the piano. It used to annoy me, but I have actually grown to like the Blue Note piano sound, it is one of the features that makes a Blue Note sound like a Blue Note. It is way less annoying on C7s than it was on Kans believe me!

The other great producer of the 50s / 60s jazz era was IMHO Bob Thiele who worked on many of the Impulse classics. Again a man with a crazy piano sound (check Black Saint as an example), but what amazing records! Impulse had a house sound as strong as Blue Note, and IMHO that is a good thing. Again I’d hate to see them “fixed”.

My '97 MCA/GRP heavy vinyl re-issue of Trane's Live At The Village Vanguard Again with Pharaoh is awesome and I recently paid fourteen quid for an original HMV mono issue of Sonny Rollins On Impulse!

Click to expand...

The 60s HMV Impulse releases are very good – I’ve got a mint stereo copy of Earl Hines ‘Once upon a time…’. The sound is superb, shame they didn’t have the nice gatefold sleeves of the US Impulses though. I’ve got a good number of original US Impulse records as they still seem to be obtainable at reasonable prices unlike Blue Notes. They are superb and the lovely heavy laminated gatefold covers are IMHO the best quality ever made.

Tony.

Very interesting thread.

My attitude to record collecting is to get a pre-80s pressing as far as possible, but beyond that, financial considerations generally mean I don't have that many early BN pressings (quite a few Impulses, however, as Tony says, they - mostly - can be had for not outrageous prices). The recent Riverside and Prestige Fantasy pressings are nothing special, but they are incredibly cheap and plentiful, Selectadisc in Berwick St has piles of them for a fiver each, and are thus a very good way to sample stuff (if I find anything really good, I'll hunt out an earlier release).

I love the imposition of this character onto the sound – it places the recordings into an particular and very special era. When I hear a genuinely superbly recorded modern jazz LP it somehow lacks this vibe and identity.

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. Of course, for most of us, this sound defines what hard bop especially "should" sound like, as the other references are either murky live recordings or lesser albums on lesser labels. But it's easy to romanticise the process. I wonder how much of the RVG "sound" was down to the requirement to come up with a proven and easy to reproduce method to produce as many records as possible, as well as possible, with the shortest amount of studio time. Not entirely a result of financial considerations either, many of the musicians themselves were of the "record as quickly as possible and get the hell out of the studio" school, either for artistic or more prosaic reasons. Prestige was the favoured label for the junkies, as they paid cash at the end of the session, had no rehearsal time, and generally aimed to get everything down in one take.

-- Ian

Original British HMV pressings are the way to go for a lot of jazz recordings. I suspect the recent Coltrane "definitive" Love Supreme was from the masters sent over to HMV in London. I have a HMV version of this which is superb.

Dave, I think the Contemporary catalogue is woefully underappreciated, this is the the label that introduced Ornette and Cecil Taylor! It boasts a quite marvellous west coast roster with greats such as Bud Shank, Shelly Manne, Art Pepper and Hampton Hawes. Victor Japan do great verions of these but again I search out the original British Vogue releases which are wonderful and often cheap.


John

I love RVG's work with Creed Taylor.

Jazz critics haven't been especially kind to the CTI label but I think some of the LP's are fantastic. I won't bore you with a list of recommendations but agree RVG is a one of a kind recording engineer.

I love RVG's work with Creed Taylor.

Click to expand...

Creed Taylor was another true genius producer, though I associate his work more with the superb 60s Verve recordings from the likes of Jimmy Smith, Stan Getz, Bill Evans etc. The way he recorded that huge massed brass of Oliver Nelson or Lalo Schifrin that features on various Verve albums from Jimmy Smith throughout the 60s was simply astounding. Amazing presence and power. US or UK pressed Verve originals sound awesome, I've got quite a few.

Tony.

Tony,

With regard to Creed Taylor, have you seen Doug Payne's excellent website?

I think it's dougpayne.com

I can't check at the moment because I'm in work & we have a netgear blockage on all .com & .couk sites. Good job PFM is a .net

BTW. It should have read Creed Taylor IS another.

Thought this would be of interest... breakdown of all major Blue Note pressings and reissues with comments on sonics, as well as the usual label markings.

No info on the ear marks, but that seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon.

http://kleene.ss.uci.edu/~rmay/Bluenote.html

Thought this would be of interest... breakdown of all major Blue Note pressings and reissues with comments on sonics, as well as the usual label markings.

Click to expand...

Very interesting. I guess my Liberty pressing of Somethin Else is No. 4 on his list.

I feel he is perhaps a little harsh on the French Pathe Marconi releases - I have a lot of these, probably 20-25, and whilst I feel some are a little patchy many are excellent. On the whole I prefer them to either of the 180g series.

Tony.

PS What's an 'ear mark'?

The ear mark is the latest "discovery" for original BN collectors. It's a little squiggly mark that looks a bit like an ear in the dead wax near the label. Guess label variants, deep groove, RVG / VAN GELDER, etc... were't enough.

Check out super expensive BN auctions on ebay. They've started to include this info.

Good luck.

Interstingly, the web page claims that the J versions are sonically the best he owns.
There are one or two factual errors, though:
Tosh-EMI were releasing BNs well before the 90s - the 45rpm version is proof of that, if nothing else.
Pretty much all BNs have been released on vinyl in Japan. They were released in tranches (in the same way the RVG CDs have been over several years) - which I don't think the author has quite grasped.
And yes, there is a volume two of Art Blakey's Orgy in Rhythm in Stereo

re: Toshiba's

Yes, I saw that as well. Although he implies (in the Pathe Marconi section) that with 83 transition, EMI affliates (PM in France, Toshiba in Japan perhaps?) began their own reissue series. To be fair, he mentions that he is aware of *at least* eight reissue series from Japan (combining King and Toshiba). The article was written in '97 and only updated in '99... I'm sure if he's anything like me, that BN collection has grown substantially!


re: Tony's PM comments

Yeah, he's abit harsh on the PM's to an extent. I treat the PM's much like I treat the recent German OJC's: My opinion is, if you like the music and would rather hear it than not, buy it in any pressing or format! Decent quality, varying pressings, but the music's not half bad.

Hi,
Yeah, but the "series" he mentions are, in fact "tranches" ie 20 or 30 albums released in one go.
THe King albums all seem to be of the same standard, and are quite rare in the usual channels these days.
What complicates the Tosh-EMI series, is that there were limited edition pressings (with the yellow label) of higher than standard quality. Some of tehse were in stereo and some were in mono.
I don't quite ahve the logic behind this yet, but I'm working on it.
The RVG series makes me wonder about the "having the music whatever the format" thing, because these seriously compromise the focus IMHO.

PS Welcome to Pink Fish, Felarca!

Originally posted by joel
Art Blakey's Orgy in Rhythm in Stereo

Click to expand...

Is this record as good as it sounds?

Thanks Joel!

Yes, I agree the current RVG CD's are spotty to be kind. My comments were more on the vinyl side then CD. I guess my point would be, if the RVG series had a disc that you REALLY wanted to hear, would you buy it, knowing the sound's not that great but the music is. Or would you troll around the Jazz bins searching years to find that record?

I think I'd buy the crappy CD/pressing as a stop gap, enjoy the music as much as I could, and continue looking for a better alternative.