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Roger Waters

Pop/rock stars commenting on world events is generally annoying; they have no special insight. Waters is a prime example of a privileged individual who is not used to hearing the word ‘no’. Less charitably, he is batshit crazy.

I find most political utterings put to song to be rather trite. The only one who does it with any elan is Randy Newman. I certainly don’t need to likes of Yard Act or Kae Tempest to provide social commentary.
 
Pop/rock stars commenting on world events is generally annoying

I'm with you on doddery old trillionaire guitar players but there have been some great politically charged records.

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And as a jazz fan it would be odd to ignore the background of segregation and the civil rights movement that informed a lot of the music I love.

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Waters, like most of the population, holds contradictory views. This shouldn’t be any surprise. The difference is of course that his fame and status ensure his views are heard by millions instead of just a few of his mates down the pub. He is an ageing rock star with a political conscience. Sometimes his comments are not thought through and are ill judged. But he is not a political philosopher and we have no right therefore to expect him to expound a fully-formed world view.

I’ll reiterate what I’ve already said. His high profile criticism of Israeli apartheid and championing of the Palestinians are infuriating the same people who were infuriated by Jeremy Corbyn. This is what is at the bottom of all the fuss. Nobody really gives a flying f**k what he thinks-whether rightly or wrongly- about blood sports or the Ukrainian conflict.
 
Almost certainly. It just annoys me that it has got to the point far-right Labour MPs are screeching for blood over artistic expression, yet not batting an eyelid when mainstream “journalists” such as Isobel Oakeshott appear to want refugees to drown in the channel and actively rail against charities such as the RNLI for attempting to save lives (Twitter).

In any sane world Waters should be absolutely irrelevant. A 1970s rock star who has never equaled past glories in a 45 year solo career. Just another nostalgic dad-rock act for old-folk with £150 or whatever the ticket price is burning a hole in their pocket.

The reason I’m posting so much on this thread is I view him as utterly harmless in a world that is so obviously going crazy. If anyone wants to see fascism don’t listen to side 3/4 of the Wall, just look at what Ron DeSantis is doing in Florida. That is the real deal right there. We’ll need more than an inflatable pig to fight it too.
I agree with you and think that the fuss being made over this is part of the picture you describe. I just feel that the toothpaste’s out of the tube, really. We’ve established that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic, that criticism of war is traitorous, that the left and the far right are identical, that it’s fine for right wing, bad faith actors to use accusations of antisemitism for their own ends. Like, all of that’s now canon, and it was established over several years when the stakes were much higher. It’s ludicrous more than anything else to have all that weaponry being used on this old duffer but that’s where we are as a culture I’m afraid.
 
I don’t agree with him on much, but I still think he is less out in the world of conspiracy theory than the average Daily Express, Mail or Telegraph reader who are so readily buying into the far-right demonisation of refugees, trans-panic etc. That’s where the real crazy is to my eyes. We live in a world where fascist book-burners such as Ron DeSantis are being elected on a platform of erasing LGBT human rights, womans rights and black history. Waters is an old hippie peacenik. Just an artist trying to push-back against a world that is clearly going insane, even if he calls some of that wrongly. If you want to rail against conspiracy theorists go after vile far-right hate-preachers and bigots like Douglas Murray, Richard Littlejohn, Calvin Robertson etc who are platformed on mainstream media. Waters is harmless and IMHO on balance far more right than he is wrong.

It's an odd sort of peacenik who supports the aggressor in the most serious conflict in Europe since 1945, but yeah, against that sort of company Waters doesn't even register. Has social media reduced the margin of proportionality to almost zero? It certainly feels like there's far too much attention paid to people to who say silly/ill-advised/ignorant things as opposed to actual bad actors.
 
It's an odd sort of peacenik who supports the aggressor in the most serious conflict in Europe since 1945, but yeah, against that sort of company Waters doesn't even register. Has social media reduced the margin of proportionality to almost zero? It certainly feels like there's far too much attention paid to people to who say silly/ill-advised/ignorant things as opposed to actual bad actors.

That is the argument I’m trying to make. A big part of the problem is the mainstream media, especially the BBC, having such a bizarrely and dangerously flawed sense of equivalence, e.g. Isobel Oakeshott (who wants the RNLI to let refugees drown), Douglas Murray (white Christian nationalist/fascist), Nigel Farage (far-right nationalist, Trump/MAGA nutter), Kate Andrews (dark-money-funded libertarian-right “economist”) and an endless amount of similarly vile and extreme-right ghouls are regularly platformed as the ‘centre ground’. The Tory funded propaganda channel GB News and the printed press are even worse. The presenters are all climate science deniers, anti-vaxxers, religious extremists, Tory MPs, or some combination thereof. The UK tabloid press are arguably even worse. In that company even a slightly crazed old hippie like Waters seems remarkably normal. Certainly far more like the folk I know and respect. Yes, he is wrong on Putin, fox hunting, and various other things, but in a world where we are being served actual fascism and associated bigotry as mainstream political thinking I’ll take anyone railing against it.

PS To my mind the BBC and the rest of the Tory mainstream press is the problem. Social media, even when owned by some of the worst people alive, e.g. Elon Musk, still allows real information sharing and discussion of ideas that are barely visible in the right-wing dominated mainstream. Any scenario where the mainstream press have normalised things as far-right and utterly repugnant as DeSantis ‘Don’t Say Gay’ or the Tories ‘Stop The Boats’ is at the Der Stürmer level. No other way of looking at it.
 
I'm with you on doddery old trillionaire guitar players but there have been some great politically charged records.

The_special_aka.jpg


And as a jazz fan it would be odd to ignore the background of segregation and the civil rights movement that informed a lot of the music I love.

Max_Roach-We_Insist%21_Max_Roach%27s_Freedom_Now_Suite_%28album_cover%29.jpg
Yes, OK, there are some exceptions. They tend not to work though;)
 
Yes, OK, there are some exceptions. They tend not to work though;)

I can think of a huge stack of great politically charged music; Dylan, Lennon, MC5, Marvin Gaye, Gil Scott Heron, 24 Karat Black, Gang Of Four, Grandmaster Flash, TRB, Beat, Specials, UB40, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Crass, Heaven 17, Redskins, McCarthy etc right through to Shabaka Hutchings, Damian Locks, Kendrick Lamar, Sault etc today. The best music is usually about/a reaction to something. Even wordless electronica such as Warrington-Runcorn New Town Development Plan can be highly political via their imagery and positioning. Nothing new, the Human League were doing that with their early The Dignity Of Labour EP. Politics runs through so much great music. Classical too, e.g. Shostakovich was remarkably subversive to the extent of taking the piss out of the deeply authoritarian Soviet regime in music they’d actually commissioned.
 
I can think of a huge stack of great politically charged music; Dylan, Lennon, MC5, Marvin Gaye, Gil Scott Heron, 24 Karat Black, Gang Of Four, Grandmaster Flash, TRB, Beat, Specials, UB40, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Crass, Heaven 17, Redskins, McCarthy etc right through to Shabaka Hutchings, Damian Locks, Kendrick Lamar, Sault etc today. The best music is usually about/a reaction to something. Even wordless electronica such as Warrington-Runcorn New Town Development Plan can be highly political via their imagery and positioning. Nothing new, the Human League were doing that with their early The Dignity Of Labour EP. Politics runs through so much great music. Classical too, e.g. Shostakovich was remarkably subversive to the extent of taking the piss out of the deeply authoritarian Soviet regime in music they’d actually commissioned.
You missed out Au Pairs:


A band I completely missed at the time and am pleased to have recently "discovered".
 
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I can think of a huge stack of great politically charged music; Dylan, Lennon, MC5, Marvin Gaye, Gil Scott Heron, 24 Karat Black, Gang Of Four, Grandmaster Flash, TRB, Beat, Specials, UB40, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Crass, Heaven 17, Redskins, McCarthy etc right through to Shabaka Hutchings, Damian Locks, Kendrick Lamar, Sault etc today. The best music is usually about/a reaction to something. Even wordless electronica such as Warrington-Runcorn New Town Development Plan can be highly political via their imagery and positioning. Nothing new, the Human League were doing that with their early The Dignity Of Labour EP. Politics runs through so much great music. Classical too, e.g. Shostakovich was remarkably subversive to the extent of taking the piss out of the deeply authoritarian Soviet regime in music they’d actually commissioned.
I cannot stand Billy Bragg, sorry.
 
I can think of a huge stack of great politically charged music; Dylan, Lennon, MC5, Marvin Gaye, Gil Scott Heron, 24 Karat Black, Gang Of Four, Grandmaster Flash, TRB, Beat, Specials, UB40, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Crass, Heaven 17, Redskins, McCarthy etc right through to Shabaka Hutchings, Damian Locks, Kendrick Lamar, Sault etc today. The best music is usually about/a reaction to something. Even wordless electronica such as Warrington-Runcorn New Town Development Plan can be highly political via their imagery and positioning. Nothing new, the Human League were doing that with their early The Dignity Of Labour EP. Politics runs through so much great music. Classical too, e.g. Shostakovich was remarkably subversive to the extent of taking the piss out of the deeply authoritarian Soviet regime in music they’d actually commissioned.
Woody Guthrie, Paul Robeson, The Wailers, Fela Kuti, Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy, The Clash, John Coltrane, The Jam, Billie Holiday, The Dead Kennedys.
 
You missed out Au Pairs

I missed out thousands, though I really should have mentioned them. An amazing band, Playing With A Different Sex is one of the very best albums of the ‘80s IMO.

PS I really can’t emphasise enough how important music was politically for me. I’ve never had the slightest tolerance for the besuited greasy pole-climbing of mainstream politics. I’d not be an MP or councillor for any amount of money as I just detest that whole bureaucratic culture and the people attracted to it. I genuinely couldn’t stand being in the same room as most of them. Music was my route in to the underlying concepts, why protest was important, what was actually worth fighting for, how it could be done effectively etc. It stuck, I’ve not changed.
 
I cannot stand Billy Bragg, sorry.

Fair enough. I’ve got and like his first mini-LP Spy vs. Spy, just so raw, and I saw him live around the time. I didn’t follow him later though, though I do now on Twitter as he’s just a really decent intelligent bloke with a genuinely good take on most things. Musically not really for me, but he is unquestionably a protest singer in the most pure meaning of the word. A force for good in the Woodie Guthrie mould.
 
Fair enough. I’ve got and like his first mini-LP Spy vs. Spy, just so raw, and I saw him live around the time. I didn’t follow him later though, though I do now on Twitter as he’s just a really decent intelligent bloke with a genuinely good take on most things. Musically not really for me, but he is unquestionably a protest singer in the most pure meaning of the word. A force for good in the Woodie Guthrie mould.
I’m not a huge fan of Billy’s music either, although there are a few songs I really love. I also disagree with his ‘progressive patriotism’ shtick and thought he, Weller and the rest were played by Kinnock with the whole Red Wedge thing.

But he’s been absolutely and consistently bang on the money when it came to the Nazis. The NF, the BNP and the EDL- Billy’s been there, on the right side of the barricades and police lines. Impeccable anti-fascist credentials so he gets my vote every time.
 
You all forgot, don't know about the American political, social justice rap metal band, "Hed PE."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hed_PE

We put them on live in a UK medium sized west country live music venue, a very memorable evening, :D

They were a bit out of control in the UK according to their very troubled Yorkshire Man tour bus driver. :(

We had to call in the "81" to calm things down, they dealt with the situation and defended our reputation admirably. :D
 
that the left and the far right are identical
The horshoe theory is a real thing, personally I think that it's just an ill-advised attempt to force the political landscape into a single dimension. This doesn't work because for example fascism and communism are both collectivist.

iu
 


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