Roger Waters

[paulfromcamden]

I've said it before, but you can usually bet that if someone is into one conspiracy theory then they're into them all. For instance I've never encountered someone who thinks the moon landings were all fake but also completely believes the official 9/11 sequence of events.

I'm not sure what it is about them but everything is a conspiracy or false flag event. One of the artists at the tattoo studio I use is an absolute full blown crank, right back to Nikola Tesla having invented free energy but it all being suppressed by shady global/US elites, all the COVID and anti Vax nuttery, the WEF, WHO etc etc. There's literally nothing that he doesn't believe is some sort of cover up or plot and he never shuts up about it.

It's a weird one. As a young man I was very interested in UFOs and general Fortean Times type unexplained weirdness. But it was all good fun and taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Now it seems a large proportion of the US population believe the country is run by a secret cabal of Satanic child molesters who meet up in the basement under a pizza joint...

I'm not sure what changed but I guess the interwebs is in there somewhere.

 

[Finnegan]

Now it seems a large proportion of the US population believe the country is run by a secret cabal of Satanic child molesters who meet up in the basement under a pizza joint...

I'm not sure what changed but I guess the interwebs is in there somewhere.

Yes, but they previously, or still do, believe that a white skinned, blue eyed Israelite, born of a virgin mother, executed by the Romans yet three days later rose again and ascended into heaven as the son of God.

The internet means that formerly isolated bampots can now connect with millions of their peers. Combine that with an accurate, if distorted, belief that we are on the verge of global destruction, and you get the perfect conspiracy storm.

 

[Tony L]

I don’t think I’d describe Waters as a conspiracy theorist. His support of Putin is a genuinely bad take, but is it conspiracy? Is say supporting Brexit a conspiracy? To my mind Brexit was irrational and entirely faith-based, so maybe, yet 52% of people did so. Is religion a conspiracy theory? I’d argue it was, yet it has mainstream acceptability.

I certainly don’t see Waters’ dumb Putin apologist stance in the same light as say the MAGA/InfoWars nutters belief in QAnon, Bill Gates putting micro-bots in the covid vaccine, school shootings being false flag/fake etc. His is just a wrong take, and a dumb one, as is say supporting the Tories’ Rwanda/Stop The Boats policy. Being wrong about something is very different to conspiracy theory IMHO.

 

[matt j]

Did he vote to leave the EU?

I don't know, more likely is he doesn't vote in anything because he thinks it's all rigged.

 

[Finnegan]

“The inflatable pig has been a feature of Roger Waters' shows for years. Each iteration has different symbols on it. In 2013, the pig featured the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent and star, and the Christian crucifix, presumably in a statement against organised religion… It may be gratuitous to use symbols of Judaism and Islam on a pig, but it didn't happen in 2023. The idea it did took hold when an image of the 2013 pig was shared in the context of Waters' latest show in Berlin.“

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1662807065931272194

 

[ks.234]

Agree. There's a feedback loop actually. I'm convinced the radical right has worsened the mental health of this country. Intensified disorders and triggered latent problems.

Yes. Part of the neoliberal narrative, expressed on pfm recently, it that if anyone who works hard and have the right attitude, can be rich and successful. That obviously mean that anyone who is not rich and successful is, by definition, lazy and incompetent.

As well as creating low self esteem from the top down, the economics of private over public means that public spending in areas like health, education and care have been cut which weakens to provision of basic necessities from the bottom up.

 

[Tony L]

Yes. Part of the neoliberal narrative, expressed on pfm recently, it that if anyone who works hard and have the right attitude, can be rich and successful. That obviously mean that anyone who is not rich and successful is, by definition, lazy and incompetent.

I’d say the is the very core of fascism. A prime example being the Tories spending countless £millions extra on the Rwanda refugee system and whole ‘Stop The Boats’ thing just to make it viscerally cruel. Now right-wing politics has failed normal working people so profoundly other scapegoats must be created as a distraction. They are paying £millions of our money to achieve this.

It is cheaper by far to process refugees in an internationally legal, respectful and humane manner, and to just leave trans folk (who are hurting absolutely no one) alone, but the political far-right need the cruelty and demonisation to divide us. It is the only thing they have left to sell. As such I’m calling this out as fascism. Neoliberalism is far too polite a term.

 

[Seanm]

Liberal thinking is shrinking, calcifying and turning ever-rightwards. Anti-war statements that would have been seen as part of normal mainstream discourse even 10 years ago are now absolutely intolerable, requiring blanket condemnation and proscription. Meanwhile the Observer praises an unprecedentedly right wing Tory government for stacking the EHRC with transphobic culture warriors. Centrists have had their brains melted by Twitter and a few brief years of having to deal with the left. Dumbest public sphere in the world.

 

[TheDecameron]

The Boats! ( you’d think it was the Viking invasions all over again) is a marvellous decoy. More importantly, where’s the 40 new hospitals in 10 years that were in the 2019 Tory manifesto? No sign of them but there’s plenty of turds in the rivers and on the beaches. Perhaps the refugees are supposed to paddle back when the outboard motor conks out in the sh1t soup?

 

[ks.234]

I’d say the is the very core of fascism. A prime example being the Tories spending countless £millions extra on the Rwanda refugee system and whole ‘Stop The Boats’ thing just to make it viscerally cruel. Now right-wing politics has failed normal working people so profoundly other scapegoats must be created as a distraction. They are paying £millions of our money to achieve this.

It is cheaper by far to process refugees in an internationally legal, respectful and humane manner, and to just leave trans folk (who are hurting absolutely no one) alone, but the political far-right need the cruelty and demonisation to divide us. It is the only thing they have left to sell. As such I’m calling this out as fascism. Neoliberalism is far too polite a term.

Yes, do agree, though I would prefer not to link neoliberalism to fascism precisely because fascism is associated with a narrative of evil and therefore a kind of other worldliness, and enables the Tories to say “we are not evil, so we are not fascist”. The immorality of neoliberalism is so everyday that is doesn’t even achieve recognition for what it is. Neoliberalism is a system for extracting wealth from the poorest and moving it to the richest, and having moved wealth to the top it is a system based on selling economic lies to convince the electorate that there is no money for the bottom. There is a great deal of wealth in this country, but it isn’t distributed morally

So neoliberalism is not so much fascist as feudalist.

Our present economic orthodoxy has more in common with our early medieval economy and the natural order promoted by church and state, than it does with Hitler

 

[Dave H.]

To my mind Brexit was irrational and entirely faith-based, so maybe, yet 52% of people did so.

Just by way of making the world seem a slightly less irrational place, don’t forget that given that the turnout wasn’t 100%, it’s more like 37% overall.

 

[kensalriser]

I don’t think I’d describe Waters as a conspiracy theorist. His support of Putin is a genuinely bad take, but is it conspiracy? Is say supporting Brexit a conspiracy? To my mind Brexit was irrational and entirely faith-based, so maybe, yet 52% of people did so. Is religion a conspiracy theory? I’d argue it was, yet it has mainstream acceptability.

I certainly don’t see Waters’ dumb Putin apologist stance in the same light as say the MAGA/InfoWars nutters belief in QAnon, Bill Gates putting micro-bots in the covid vaccine, school shootings being false flag/fake etc. His is just a wrong take, and a dumb one, as is say supporting the Tories’ Rwanda/Stop The Boats policy. Being wrong about something is very different to conspiracy theory IMHO.

I certainly wouldn't categorise him with the most committed CTs, but the incoherent and inconsistent thinking, underlying theme of dark forces joining against us and susceptibility to disinformation looks pretty similar to me.

 

[droodzilla]

An interesting, and rather disturbing, Twitter thread from Alex Nunns about that pig:

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1662807065931272194

It may be gratuitous to use symbols of Judaism and Islam on a pig, but it didn't happen in 2023. The idea it did took hold when an image of the 2013 pig was shared in the context of Waters' latest show in Berlin. This tweet seems to be the one that spread it, with big engagement.
...
Tory-turned-Labour MP Christian Wakeford claimed in parliament that, in Berlin, Waters had "used the Star of David on a giant pig to insinuate that Jewish people run the world." He wrote to the AO Arena in Manchester urging them to pull Waters' gig there.
...
The BBC then reported on Wakeford's call, repeating his false assertion. What's amazing about all this is that there are multiple videos of the full Berlin concert on YouTube, meaning any media outlet, especially one with the resources of the BBC, could very easily have checked.
...
Update: this Haaretz article says the 2013 pig didn’t feature the crescent and crucifix until they were added after complaints about the star from Jewish groups. Personally, I think that criticism was justified. Presumably Waters did too, as he changed it.

If Alex Nunns is correct (and I regard him as a far more credible commentator than most of the UK press or the professional racist MP, Christian Wakeford), this is a perfect example of the old saying that a lie is already halyway around the world before truth has put its shoes on. It also suggests that Waters would have a strong case if Waters should choose to sue (e.g.) Wakeford.

And here's the perfect postscript:

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1662977891171172352

For pointing out that Tory-turned-Labour MP Christian Wakeford made a false statement in parliament about an inflatable pig, he's blocked me.

Which at least confirms that he now knows his claim was false and puts him under an obligation to correct the parliamentary record...

 

[Tony L]

I certainly wouldn't categorise him with the most committed CTs, but the incoherent and inconsistent thinking, underlying theme of dark forces joining against us and susceptibility to disinformation looks pretty similar to me.

I don’t agree with him on much, but I still think he is less out in the world of conspiracy theory than the average Daily Express, Mail or Telegraph reader who are so readily buying into the far-right demonisation of refugees, trans-panic etc. That’s where the real crazy is to my eyes. We live in a world where fascist book-burners such as Ron DeSantis are being elected on a platform of erasing LGBT human rights, womans rights and black history. Waters is an old hippie peacenik. Just an artist trying to push-back against a world that is clearly going insane, even if he calls some of that wrongly. If you want to rail against conspiracy theorists go after vile far-right hate-preachers and bigots like Douglas Murray, Richard Littlejohn, Calvin Robertson etc who are platformed on mainstream media. Waters is harmless and IMHO on balance far more right than he is wrong.

 

[droodzilla]

^^^ Spot on, Tony. I think Roger Waters' heart is in the right place, but some of his takes (e.g. on Ukraine) are questionable.

 

[Tony L]

If Alex Nunns is correct (and I regard him as a far more credible commentator than most of the UK press or the professional racist MP, Christian Wakeford), this is a perfect example of the old saying that a lie is already halyway around the world before truth has put its shoes on. It also suggests that Waters would have a strong case if Waters should choose to sue (e.g.) Wakeford.

I really hope Waters sues the living shit out of Wakeford, and if that isn’t enough he then goes after the Labour Party for publishing Wakeford’s libel. A Waters tour is a multi-£million event, so proving damages should be a breeze.

 

[paulfromcamden]

on balance far more right than he is wrong.

I suspect this is probably not true.

PINK FLOYD star Roger Waters is so disgusted by Britain's recent ban on hunting, he refuses to live here anymore and has taken up residence in America.
The veteran rocker now lives in New York's the Hamptons - famously known as a millionaires' playground - where he feels more at home than in the English countryside where traditional country pursuit fox hunting, is now outlawed. He rages, "To slap down a perfectly gentle, fair-minded and honest yeoman-like minority in that way was just disgusting. It is also bloody stupid."

https://www.contactmusic.com/roger-...rs-leaves-britain-in-disgust-over-hunting-ban

One report claimed he’d relocated to the US in protest at the 2004 hunting ban. He frowns when I mention it. “Of course not. That’s not quite how it was.” He pauses. “Well, it may well have been that in some interview or other I might have been so strongly pro the people of the British countryside … I went to Hyde Park and joined 100,000 of them who had marched from all over England to protest about the anti-hunting bill, and I felt very strongly that it was a terrible piece of legislation.” He doesn’t want to talk about this, he says, but he can’t seem to stop himself, and off he goes: the ensuing monologue takes in “MPs who’ve never been to the countryside”, a passage from Rudyard Kipling’s Stalky & Co, and the difference between hunting a fox and snaring animals for fur.

Interview: Roger Waters: 'I'm prepared to be wrong about everything' (LOL)

 

[Seanm]

Are we maybe expecting too much from addled old hippy dufuses.

 

[palindrome]

Are we maybe expecting too much from addled old hippy dufuses.

Speak for yerself.

[]

John

 

[Tony L]

Are we maybe expecting too much from addled old hippy dufuses.

Almost certainly. It just annoys me that it has got to the point far-right Labour MPs are screeching for blood over artistic expression, yet not batting an eyelid when mainstream “journalists” such as Isobel Oakeshott appear to want refugees to drown in the channel and actively rail against charities such as the RNLI for attempting to save lives (Twitter).

In any sane world Waters should be absolutely irrelevant. A 1970s rock star who has never equaled past glories in a 45 year solo career. Just another nostalgic dad-rock act for old-folk with £150 or whatever the ticket price is burning a hole in their pocket.

The reason I’m posting so much on this thread is I view him as utterly harmless in a world that is so obviously going crazy. If anyone wants to see fascism don’t listen to side 3/4 of the Wall, just look at what Ron DeSantis is doing in Florida. That is the real deal right there. We’ll need more than an inflatable pig to fight it too.