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Italian grammar and etiquette

Don't forget that in French you can use the present tense to narrate the past. I just typed into google "En France c'est De Gaulle" and this came up at the top of the list En France, c'est de Gaulle qui octroie par ordonnance le suffrage aux femmes en 1944.

The really unintuitive thing for me is the the future perfect. Here's one where even the rule is hard for me to get my head round: Le plus beau cadeau que je me serai offert. Ce fut pour moi une aventure qui commença avec de simples échanges, .. .. In English you'd just say The best present I've ever given myself . . .
 
Don't forget that in French you can use the present tense to narrate the past. I just typed into google "En France c'est De Gaulle" and this came up at the top of the list En France, c'est de Gaulle qui octroie par ordonnance le suffrage aux femmes en 1944.

Also done in English, if rarely. "In 1941 it is the catastrophic defeat of the Allies at Dunkirk that nearly brings an end to the war".

The really unintuitive thing for me is the the future perfect. Here's one where even the rule is hard for me to get my head round: Le plus beau cadeau que je me serai offert. Ce fut pour moi une aventure qui commença avec de simples échanges, .. .. In English you'd just say The best present I've ever given myself . . .[/QUOTE]
I'd never wrestle with that, Like the non-present forms of the subjunctive I just find another way around. "Le plus beau cadeau que je me suis jamais offert..." so it's just the passé parfait as normal.
 
PRESENT SIMPLE; I drive (as a routine etc.).....................
Je conduis. (Présent)

PRESENT CONT. I am driving (current or potential future activity)
Je conduis. (Présent) Yes, no difference.

FUTURE SIMPLE; I will drive (showing decision or intent).....
Je conduirai (futur)
FUTURE CONT. I will be driving (planning [e.g. this time tomorrow I'll be driving])
(a 8h demain) je conduirai (futur). No difference.

Interesting that English seems to have a more elaborate yet clearly defined tense structure with specific and exclusive uses of the simple and continuous. Maybe a case of 'C'est la vie with timing' as opposed to simply 'C'est la vie'? ;). Incidentally, the present perfect was judged the most commonly used tense by native speakers, and I think the British queue system may be fundamental as in 'I've waited in this queue now for 2 hours' or 'I've been waiting now for 2 hours' (example of very similar meaning but with slight time meaning.
 
I'd never wrestle with that, Like the non-present forms of the subjunctive I just find another way around. "Le plus beau cadeau que je me suis jamais offert..." so it's just the passé parfait as normal.


It's just impossible to understand this, certainly not at the speed of thought. A friend of mine is French, he came over to the UK to escape the Nazis when he was about 10 and stayed -- he's over 90 now. Well, he said he can't understand it. Look at this discussion

FR: futur de supposition - Se sera perdu | WordReference Forums
 
It's just impossible to understand this, certainly not at the speed of thought. A friend of mine is French, he came over to the UK to escape the Nazis when he was about 10 and stayed -- he's over 90 now. Well, he said he can't understand it. Look at this discussion

FR: futur de supposition - Se sera perdu | WordReference Forums
Yes, that one could run and run. Context sensitive indeed.

The other one I've never really been confident about is whether the conditional is replaceable by the subjunctive.
That I do know. No it isn't. Conditional tense involves certainty. If X then Y. If I needed a new car I *would go* to a car dealer. Si j'avais besoin d'une nouvelle voiture, j'irais au garage. This is a statement of fact based on the first statement being true. It is *conditional* on the first statement. However the first statement is generally not (yet) true otherwise you wouldn't need to use the conditional.
You would never say "Si j'avais besoin d'une nouvelle voiture j'aille au garage."
I've got 11 pages in my French grammar book telling me about the subjunctive. I haven't learned it all, needless to say. I don't understand the use of subjunctive for "dernier ultime" except to know it is used. "C'est le seul espoir que nous *ayons*." Other than that I just use it for obvious case like "il faut que", "Je veux que", etc and then work my way around avoiding it. Past tense, avoid for sure. "Il fallait que" is, like counting to 5 for The Holy Hand Grenade Of Antioch, *right out*. I'm going with "C'etait necessaire a " and then the normal imperfect because AFAIK for whatever reason that doesn't trigger the accursed "subjonctif de l'imparfait" that very few understand and even fewer use.
 
It's just impossible to understand this, certainly not at the speed of thought. A friend of mine is French, he came over to the UK to escape the Nazis when he was about 10 and stayed -- he's over 90 now. Well, he said he can't understand it. Look at this discussion

FR: futur de supposition - Se sera perdu | WordReference Forums

The other one I've never really been confident about is whether the conditional is replaceable by the subjunctive.
It's not. "Nous aimerions" (conditionnel présent) versus "que nous aimions" (subjonctif présent), and the meaning is quite different, too.

Hats off to everybody here trying to make sense of all this in multiple languages. I can guarantee (based on looking at BTL comments in French media like Le Monde) that less than 10% of French citizens know how to find their way around all these forms these days. The imparfait du subjonctif and plus que parfait du subjonctif are almost as dead as the dodo, and even the passé simple is under threat ("nous fûmes", "vous fûtes", etc.).

EDIT: beaten to it by steve67
 
So can I say these, and if so, what’s the difference if any?

Il m’a dit qu’elle soit heureuse là.

Il m’a dit qu’elle serait heureuse là.


And I guess for completeness

Il m’a dit qu’elle sera / est heureuse là.
 
So can I say these, and if so, what’s the difference if any?

Il m’a dit qu’elle soit heureuse là.
No. This is not subjunctive, "he said" is a definitive statement and does not trigger the subjunctive.
You want "est heuresue" if she is in the place in question, or conditional if she isn't in there at present but might be.

Il m’a dit qu’elle serait heureuse là.

Yes, bang on. He said that she would be happy there.

And I guess for completeness
Il m’a dit qu’elle sera / est heureuse là.
Yes again.

You would use the subjunctive if you hit any of the triggers. Off the top of my head:
Il faut qu'elle soit heureuse la.
Je veux qu'elle soit...
Il me semble qu' elle soit... (I think this is a trigger)
etc. I'll get my book out.
 
So can I say these, and if so, what’s the difference if any?

Il m’a dit qu’elle soit heureuse là.

Il m’a dit qu’elle serait heureuse là.


And I guess for completeness

Il m’a dit qu’elle sera / est heureuse là.
I don't think you could say the first, at least not without additional punctuation:
Il m'a dit: "qu'elle soit heureuse là". He told me "let her be happy there".​
The second is fine: he told me she would be happy there.
Third: he told me she will be happy there.
Fourth: he told me she is happy there.

EDIT:
Supplemental, just for laffs:
Conditionnel passé:
Il m'a dit qu'elle aurait été heureuse là - he told me she would have been happy there.​
Subjonctif passé:
Bien qu'elle ait été heureuse là: although she had been happy there...​
Subjonctif imparfait:
Bien qu'elle fût heureuse là: although she was (and for all we know still is) happy there...​
Subjonctif plus-que-parfait
Bien qu'elle eût été heureuse là: although she might/would have been happy there, (roughly similar to conditionnel passé). Usage depends on the tense of the previous text, and a general preference to avoid ridiculous sounding conjugations (in particular the dreaded -usse endings).​
 
Right, I somehow had the idea that Il m’a dit qu’elle soit heureuse là is just another way of expressing the idea that she may be happy there. Au temps pour moi!

Modal verbs are a bugger! I just noticed that I said she may be happy there and @PsB said She would be happy there. There’s a big difference I think. But it’s another really hard thing for me, too hard.
 
It's not. "Nous aimerions" (conditionnel présent) versus "que nous aimions" (subjonctif présent), and the meaning is quite different, too.

Hats off to everybody here trying to make sense of all this in multiple languages. I can guarantee (based on looking at BTL comments in French media like Le Monde) that less than 10% of French citizens know how to find their way around all these forms these days. The imparfait du subjonctif and plus que parfait du subjonctif are almost as dead as the dodo, and even the passé simple is under threat ("nous fûmes", "vous fûtes", etc.).

EDIT: beaten to it by steve67
I only know the passé simple in as much as recognising it and deriving the verb in question. I don't know how to write it and as you know it's never spoken in modern French. On that basis I'll only ever read it so all I need to know is how to spot it and recognise the verb.
The forms of the subjonctif other than the present are as you say nearly dead and only used by people in job interviews wishing to show off their excellent command of the language. More commonly you will hear "Quand je travaillais a Paris il fallait que...euh...on soit sur que le chef etait parti avant de..." Wrong, but everyone understands. This is a bit like hearing "If I was you" in English.
 
There are four conditional states in English if I remember; zero, 1,2 and 3. If I were you, don't get me started (2nd cond?) :D
 
If you'd told me we'd be getting started, Mike, I'd have come earlier.

Are there Superior New World conditions attached, Craig, as it does sound a bit Erie to me?

PS The above is an example of the 3rd conditional (just looked it up in my old Cambridge 1st Cert. text-book)
 
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I only know the passé simple in as much as recognising it and deriving the verb in question. I don't know how to write it and as you know it's never spoken in modern French. On that basis I'll only ever read it so all I need to know is how to spot it and recognise the verb.
The forms of the subjonctif other than the present are as you say nearly dead and only used by people in job interviews wishing to show off their excellent command of the language. More commonly you will hear "Quand je travaillais a Paris il fallait que...euh...on soit sur que le chef etait parti avant de..." Wrong, but everyone understands. This is a bit like hearing "If I was you" in English.

Friends of my brother speak Italian fluently having lived near Rome for more than ten years or so. They were telling us about the hostility they are subjected to whenever they go to northern Italy because they speak the language with a southern accent. Btw what does testa di cazzo mean ;-)?
 
Excellent discussion!
To me the English verb is extraordinarily simple. A few forms, a few modal verbs and auxiliaries make it really straightforward when we have so many difficulties in ours.
The simple past and the subjonctive are particularly annoying to our kids. They never seem to get it right.
And the spelling is an absolute nightmare. Once again English spelling is so easy to master it seems.
 
Friends of my brother speak Italian fluently having lived near Rome for more than ten years or so. They were telling us about the hostility they are subjected to whenever they go to northern Italy because they speak the language with a southern accent. Btw what does testa di cazzo mean ;-)?
Dick head, literally. It is not a compliment.
 
Friends of my brother speak Italian fluently having lived near Rome for more than ten years or so. They were telling us about the hostility they are subjected to whenever they go to northern Italy because they speak the language with a southern accent. Btw what does testa di cazzo mean ;-)?

An excellent excuse not to learn the language. Tks
Fortunately, IME, Italians are forgiving to foreigners who do not speak their language. The French less so. And young Germans/Dutch/Scandinavians speak better English than the English...
 
Friends of my brother speak Italian fluently having lived near Rome for more than ten years or so. They were telling us about the hostility they are subjected to whenever they go to northern Italy because they speak the language with a southern accent. Btw what does testa di cazzo mean ;-)?

In my contribution upthread I specifically stated that the source of my info was my NORTHERN Italian partner. I have noted, in her family, a definite anti South bias especially manifested in an irritation caused by Southern accents. They were keen that American born relatives coming to Italy to improve their language skills should do so in the North. Otherwise they seem very nice.
 
La vita bugiarda degli adulti.
That scene where Vittoria (car driver)is hurling insults at the motorcyclist is hilarious.I had to look up the Italian... something about his sister.
 


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