Naim New Classic has begun, but should I get an ex-demo 282?
Dingbat
pfm Member
Hopefully, the 300DR does have the desired outcome. Hopefully too, customs does not end up whacking me around the head with it. If they do, the value proposition may not be that great.
The cables I need have gotten stuck in customs, and need to have a customs broker assigned. First time this has ever happened to me. Always something new.
I have left the amplification as 282/SCDR half connected/SN2. I still feel there is some strangeness, but may have an idea what's going on. Need the rest of the pieces of the puzzle to arrive to see how this will end up. Another strange thing, I also have a CDX2/XPSDR, and this seems to have mostly improved quite a bit from where it was before.
For those with SN2/SN3 watching this, the object lesson is if you like your system, don't touch it! Otherwise, you'll get yourself in a lot of strife, like I have.
The cables I need have gotten stuck in customs, and need to have a customs broker assigned. First time this has ever happened to me. Always something new.
I have left the amplification as 282/SCDR half connected/SN2. I still feel there is some strangeness, but may have an idea what's going on. Need the rest of the pieces of the puzzle to arrive to see how this will end up. Another strange thing, I also have a CDX2/XPSDR, and this seems to have mostly improved quite a bit from where it was before.
For those with SN2/SN3 watching this, the object lesson is if you like your system, don't touch it! Otherwise, you'll get yourself in a lot of strife, like I have.
Mr Underhill
pfm Member
Hi @Dingbat ,
I used to love Chrome Bumper. I never got on with Olive although it was more detailed. I think Classic was a real step up by Naim.
A friend who has forgotten more about Naim then I will know spent a couple of days playing with the new 222/300PSX/NC250. He was initially unimpressed but as he replaced the provided cables, including A5, he became more impressed. He will be buying an NC250 in due course.
BUT, he loves OLD Naim.
Another friend who is similarly knowledgeable thinks that the new equipment is also a move to a more 'traditional' Naim sound ....he is very much sticking with Classic.
Before you make a decision my advice would be to listen to the new equipment. Depending on your view of music reproduction you may have the chance to a get a system that you love at a bargain price .....if you don't prefer the new, or is that the old, Naim sound.
M
I used to love Chrome Bumper. I never got on with Olive although it was more detailed. I think Classic was a real step up by Naim.
A friend who has forgotten more about Naim then I will know spent a couple of days playing with the new 222/300PSX/NC250. He was initially unimpressed but as he replaced the provided cables, including A5, he became more impressed. He will be buying an NC250 in due course.
BUT, he loves OLD Naim.
Another friend who is similarly knowledgeable thinks that the new equipment is also a move to a more 'traditional' Naim sound ....he is very much sticking with Classic.
Before you make a decision my advice would be to listen to the new equipment. Depending on your view of music reproduction you may have the chance to a get a system that you love at a bargain price .....if you don't prefer the new, or is that the old, Naim sound.
M
Dingbat
pfm Member
I finally received the cables to connect both set of rails from Supercap to 282. I have only been hearing this for an hour or so, but now there is finally a significant difference.
With just a Hicap, or one cable from the Supercap, I was not finding the sound quality that satisfying. I have heard the terms forward and exuberance used with the 282 by other people. I see what they mean. In this configuration, this quality seems over-emphasised, I found there was a harshness to the top end, and the bass was not that well controlled. Strangely, the CDX2 didn't seem too put off, but the NDS really suffered.
Now with 2 cables connecting the Supercap, it is sounding relatively more refined and much more satisfying with all the sources I have. Noticing more detail, much better bass control and the harshness has dissipated. I am perhaps glad that I ended up getting the Supercap - I don't think I liked the 282 with a Hicap.
Of course, the SN2 is still a mullet of a poweramp in this setup. The 300DR is taking a bit longer to arrive, it should come in the next couple of days. Then I'll see whether this was all really worth it or not.
With just a Hicap, or one cable from the Supercap, I was not finding the sound quality that satisfying. I have heard the terms forward and exuberance used with the 282 by other people. I see what they mean. In this configuration, this quality seems over-emphasised, I found there was a harshness to the top end, and the bass was not that well controlled. Strangely, the CDX2 didn't seem too put off, but the NDS really suffered.
Now with 2 cables connecting the Supercap, it is sounding relatively more refined and much more satisfying with all the sources I have. Noticing more detail, much better bass control and the harshness has dissipated. I am perhaps glad that I ended up getting the Supercap - I don't think I liked the 282 with a Hicap.
Of course, the SN2 is still a mullet of a poweramp in this setup. The 300DR is taking a bit longer to arrive, it should come in the next couple of days. Then I'll see whether this was all really worth it or not.
Personally I suspect the Supernait 2 is the bottleneck to the less than stellar performance of the 282/SC, not so much on the Hicap DR. The 282 sounds good with 250DR too. Having said that, the SCDR should be an improvement to the HCDR.
The system is still compromised with the SN2 acting as a power amp to the 282/SCDR. You should be in for a treat or surprise when it's all together in full force.
Dingbat
pfm Member
@ryder - Yes, I'm mindful that the SN2 is artificially limiting the performance, and won't know for sure how it's really going to properly sound until I have the poweramp connected up. It's good that the SN2 gives the option to go this way, but I see now what @Hungry Halibut meant, it's better to jump in one go if you can. In practice, it's really difficult, especially if getting second hand.
I figured originally that a 250DR would be fine for my setup. I ended up getting a 300DR for 2 reasons: I found one at what I thought wasn't too bad a price, and didn't want to faff about in the future going from 250DR to 300DR. I'd rather get the poweramp now that will likely never change, than get one I might end up changing.
I will report more details once I get the 300DR.
I figured originally that a 250DR would be fine for my setup. I ended up getting a 300DR for 2 reasons: I found one at what I thought wasn't too bad a price, and didn't want to faff about in the future going from 250DR to 300DR. I'd rather get the poweramp now that will likely never change, than get one I might end up changing.
I will report more details once I get the 300DR.
Dingbat
pfm Member
The 300DR arrived in time for me to set things up for the weekend. I bought it from Signals. The VAT inclusive price was £4,500, but since this was being shipped to Australia, I didn't incur UK VAT. However, after shipping, adding 10% Australian GST and another charge, it pretty much ended up being the same as the VAT inclusive price.
For those who say no additional charges into Australia, you're definitely wrong. I checked with the shipper, I looked deep into customs rules. Anything over $1,000 will be subject to GST and possible additional customs duties. Second hand has no special exemption. Fortunately, it seems that power supplies and audio amplifiers map to customs commodity codes which don't incur any additional duty. I can't explain NZ entirely, but perhaps it came through on the customs system that it had already incurred NZ GST.
When I hooked up the 300DR, the first thing I noticed was the bass was super powerful, and blooming like something crazy I finally figured out what was going on - the new poweramp has completely disrupted room acoustics and the positioning of everything. I shifted speaker position back, left, right, finally forwards a bit, and removed any toe in. I pushed the couch back and rearranged other furniture. At one point whilst doing this, the PRAT disappeared, then it came back after another shift of stuff.
At this point, my brain is still struggling to process what I'm hearing. The bass is definitely a lot more authoritative. I will hear like an instrument playing a lead line, and the decay seems very accurate. A drum roll is hitting like 20 times a second, and i can pick out each thwack. On the other hand, the sound image seems to have gone flat. Alright, so Naim is never going to have a great soundstage, but it's really odd. I feel like my ears are staring at something completely flat. I can't say that the sound image was totally 3D with the SN2, but it felt like there was some depth. Right now, I feel like there's no depth at all.
There could be a whole bunch of things going on here:
1) Room acoustics could be playing up. I might have to pay a lot more serious attention to this.
2) Might still need to continue mucking around with loudspeaker and seating positioning.
3) Other weak points might be getting exposed. Maybe loudspeaker cable or cable dressing?
4) My ears might only be Supernait quality.
5) The sound quality is now so good that my brain needs to adjust to it.
6) Possibly I don't like one of the new components, either the 282 or the 300DR.
So, I can't give any definitive comment on how the sound has improved at this point. Let me see how this goes, I'll have to keep listening and adjusting things.
For those who say no additional charges into Australia, you're definitely wrong. I checked with the shipper, I looked deep into customs rules. Anything over $1,000 will be subject to GST and possible additional customs duties. Second hand has no special exemption. Fortunately, it seems that power supplies and audio amplifiers map to customs commodity codes which don't incur any additional duty. I can't explain NZ entirely, but perhaps it came through on the customs system that it had already incurred NZ GST.
When I hooked up the 300DR, the first thing I noticed was the bass was super powerful, and blooming like something crazy I finally figured out what was going on - the new poweramp has completely disrupted room acoustics and the positioning of everything. I shifted speaker position back, left, right, finally forwards a bit, and removed any toe in. I pushed the couch back and rearranged other furniture. At one point whilst doing this, the PRAT disappeared, then it came back after another shift of stuff.
At this point, my brain is still struggling to process what I'm hearing. The bass is definitely a lot more authoritative. I will hear like an instrument playing a lead line, and the decay seems very accurate. A drum roll is hitting like 20 times a second, and i can pick out each thwack. On the other hand, the sound image seems to have gone flat. Alright, so Naim is never going to have a great soundstage, but it's really odd. I feel like my ears are staring at something completely flat. I can't say that the sound image was totally 3D with the SN2, but it felt like there was some depth. Right now, I feel like there's no depth at all.
There could be a whole bunch of things going on here:
1) Room acoustics could be playing up. I might have to pay a lot more serious attention to this.
2) Might still need to continue mucking around with loudspeaker and seating positioning.
3) Other weak points might be getting exposed. Maybe loudspeaker cable or cable dressing?
4) My ears might only be Supernait quality.
5) The sound quality is now so good that my brain needs to adjust to it.
6) Possibly I don't like one of the new components, either the 282 or the 300DR.
So, I can't give any definitive comment on how the sound has improved at this point. Let me see how this goes, I'll have to keep listening and adjusting things.
Well, the Nap300 was probably intended to be fronted by a 252 or 52? The witch hat mod will probably help but difficult when you are in NZ.
Hope it works out as you have spent a lot of money.
I really don’t think it’s anything to do with cables. Ultimately it was always going to sound different from what you had, different isn’t always better.
Hope it works out as you have spent a lot of money.
I really don’t think it’s anything to do with cables. Ultimately it was always going to sound different from what you had, different isn’t always better.
Give it a few weeks, then re-install Supernait.
joe9407
actress/activist
Yes, this is the likely answer.
I went from an SN1 to 282/250 and was surprised at just how much "more of everything" there was! I think your speakers need to come out from the wall, though of course without seeing your room this is a bit of a guess.
At any rate, you've got a great system there and with a bit of experimentation -and giving your ears time to adjust- I'm confident all will be good in the end.
From the possibilities you have listed above, I have omitted the non relevant ones, arranged from most relevant to least relevant in my book. The new amps have obviously altered the balance in your room. Items 1 and 6 are closely related to each other.
Between 282 and 300DR, I would be more inclined to think that the 300Dr may have caused a larger "upset" in the room. There is a minority of people who preferred the 250DR to the 300DR fronted by 282. A 282/300DR owner switched to the 250DR and found that the latter fits the room better and have stayed with the 282/250DR since. If the current sound doesn't sound right, personally I don't think spending more money on a 252 or 52 will resolve the issue.
I hope you will get it sorted out without changing anything though. As Joe has suggested above, keep playing with speaker positioning and be patient.
Good luck.
Dingbat
pfm Member
Moving the speakers around definitely helped, as did re-arranging things around the room.
I tried swapping out the 282 for the SN2 as preamp - and guess what? I found the sound quite satisfying! So the 300DR is not the problem. Alright, SN2 as preamp is silly on a 300DR, but the resulting sound was quite good. The 300DR definitely improved in a major way on the poweramp section on the SN2.
Switched back to the 282 now to get a better handle on the sound. I think with the 282, the sound seems a lot more HiFi, detailed accurate, but here is one tangible difference I found between SN2 preamp and the 282. With the SN2, vocals reach out and are much more emotionally engaging. With the 282, the vocals seem rather flat. There is definitely more slam and detail with the 282 versus the SN2, so it's definitely better from that perspective.
Maybe I'm just completely different from everyone else, who tends to report the 282 as forward and in your face. I think I'm finding the complete opposite. Let me listen more and see if I get more used to it. I do remember it took me a while to get used to my speakers.
Yes, I agree the 300DR was probably silly. Someone had made a comment that the preamp section of the SN2 might be stronger than the poweramp. From all the switching in and out of components, that could be the case. Perhaps I should have gotten a 250 only, and stuck that as a poweramp on top of the SN2 as preamp and left it as that.
I tried swapping out the 282 for the SN2 as preamp - and guess what? I found the sound quite satisfying! So the 300DR is not the problem. Alright, SN2 as preamp is silly on a 300DR, but the resulting sound was quite good. The 300DR definitely improved in a major way on the poweramp section on the SN2.
Switched back to the 282 now to get a better handle on the sound. I think with the 282, the sound seems a lot more HiFi, detailed accurate, but here is one tangible difference I found between SN2 preamp and the 282. With the SN2, vocals reach out and are much more emotionally engaging. With the 282, the vocals seem rather flat. There is definitely more slam and detail with the 282 versus the SN2, so it's definitely better from that perspective.
Maybe I'm just completely different from everyone else, who tends to report the 282 as forward and in your face. I think I'm finding the complete opposite. Let me listen more and see if I get more used to it. I do remember it took me a while to get used to my speakers.
Yes, I agree the 300DR was probably silly. Someone had made a comment that the preamp section of the SN2 might be stronger than the poweramp. From all the switching in and out of components, that could be the case. Perhaps I should have gotten a 250 only, and stuck that as a poweramp on top of the SN2 as preamp and left it as that.
Mynamemynaim
38yrs a Naim owner
Don't forget you will need a good few hours between changes to let the amp /preamp settle down and warm up
Dingbat
pfm Member
Whatever happens, I'm going to find a way to make the 282 work!
That could be part of it too, and something somewhere might be running in. For instance, the DIN to XLR cables for the 300DR were still in a sealed bag. I'm not sure what the previous owner was using, something higher end?
I adjusted the speaker positions yet again, must have shifted it about 20 times now! This latest shift seems to have helped a lot. I just listened to an album by Sarah Jarosz, World On The Ground, and (with grudging admission), it did sound very excellent. It's rather acoustical, delicate, with prominent vocals, and the 282 conveyed this all with aplomb.
It's dawned on me that this huge jump in amplification has a very different presentation to the SN2. I'm not used to it, and it's hard for my ears to interpret. The SN2 gave a very enjoyable sound. Obviously it would lack detail, resolution and accuracy compared to higher levels of amplification, whether from Naim or another brand.
I'm not sure whether it was the last shifts in speaker position which helped, or settling/running in, or ears adjusting, but vocals seem to come up better now.
Also, my system seems to have become ruthlessly revealing. I tried a couple of tracks from the second album from Cable Ties, a modern punk band. The mix is really funny, the very low bass frequencies are missing in action. On my system now, I can clearly discern the bass and kick drums, but boy does the missing low bass make it sound rather strange.
Dingbat
pfm Member
My system seems to have become hyper-sensitive to speaker position. It looks like the problems I've been having are almost entirely due to speaker position. I now have the speakers about double the distance away from the back and side walls than they were before. One of them was fairly close to the corner, now it's into the room a bit. The toe-in matters massively as well. Believe it or not, when I pivot the speaker and shift the back left or right a centimetre, the imaging degrades a lot. The best toe-in is about 4 degrees. Now that I've figured out the best position for the speakers, I might superglue them there or something.
Now, what about the sound quality?
Instead of using the same old terms as everyone else like holographic or 3D, I will say this about the image and soundstage. It's as if I am swimming through the music, right in the middle of it. Very excellent female vocalists project extremely well, they become very compelling.
The decay of individual instruments is massively enhanced. I feel like I can hear every single thing the drummer hits. The hit of the cymbals, the toms, the high hats. It's all distinct. Guitars, whether acoustic, or electric not running through effects pedals or distortion, sound utterly wonderful. It's like I can see the panoply of guitar strings all flying through the air. In general, I can see much clearer into individual instruments in the mix.
I would say the sound of my system has become much more honest. Each song, each artist becomes much more distinctive. Whether it's intense Indie rock, beautiful acoustic fluttering or jazzy weaving, it's portrayed much more as that genre. Some songs become much more listenable, while a few just have mixes that don't come out that well, and it's not as enjoyable.
Certain songs have very complex mixes which I knew the SN2 couldn't fully dig into, which didn't mean it wasn't enjoyable listening to it on the SN2, just that I knew there was more there which I couldn't discern. I suspected what might be behind the veil, but now that the veil is lifted, I'm finding that sometimes it is what I suspected was lurking there, and other times, I am surprised that it is something different which I didn't guess.
This is how the 282/SCDR/300DR sound together. I don't know if I can properly attribute certain aspects of the sound to one or the other. It's all of them working together which is doing this, acting as a collective synergy. At the very least, compared to the preamp on the SN2, the 282 is holding back a hell of a lot less information. This combination works really well, now that I've figured out what the problem was. 252 or 52 is not necessary!
Now, I think I will stop trying to critically analyse what I am listening to and just enjoy it!
Now, what about the sound quality?
Instead of using the same old terms as everyone else like holographic or 3D, I will say this about the image and soundstage. It's as if I am swimming through the music, right in the middle of it. Very excellent female vocalists project extremely well, they become very compelling.
The decay of individual instruments is massively enhanced. I feel like I can hear every single thing the drummer hits. The hit of the cymbals, the toms, the high hats. It's all distinct. Guitars, whether acoustic, or electric not running through effects pedals or distortion, sound utterly wonderful. It's like I can see the panoply of guitar strings all flying through the air. In general, I can see much clearer into individual instruments in the mix.
I would say the sound of my system has become much more honest. Each song, each artist becomes much more distinctive. Whether it's intense Indie rock, beautiful acoustic fluttering or jazzy weaving, it's portrayed much more as that genre. Some songs become much more listenable, while a few just have mixes that don't come out that well, and it's not as enjoyable.
Certain songs have very complex mixes which I knew the SN2 couldn't fully dig into, which didn't mean it wasn't enjoyable listening to it on the SN2, just that I knew there was more there which I couldn't discern. I suspected what might be behind the veil, but now that the veil is lifted, I'm finding that sometimes it is what I suspected was lurking there, and other times, I am surprised that it is something different which I didn't guess.
This is how the 282/SCDR/300DR sound together. I don't know if I can properly attribute certain aspects of the sound to one or the other. It's all of them working together which is doing this, acting as a collective synergy. At the very least, compared to the preamp on the SN2, the 282 is holding back a hell of a lot less information. This combination works really well, now that I've figured out what the problem was. 252 or 52 is not necessary!
Now, I think I will stop trying to critically analyse what I am listening to and just enjoy it!
Dingbat
pfm Member
Can I abstain? The anti-Naim police might come around and chuck Class A at me, or possibly cheap Rega amps for good measure.So I take it you like what the 282/SC/300 is doing then?
Um... I suppose I appreciate what it is doing? I'm still wondering how it sounded so crap, and then by mucking around with the speaker position, and possibly a bit of settling in, it's changed into a completely different beast.
And they are a good things too, both the cheaper ones and the Aethos/Osiris flagships if paired correct.
Not that these are considered cheap unless you compare with Naim prices, at least the new classic which is more like a new car for 3 boxes.
Its a great time to buy s/h Naim classic boxes as you did, lovely setup.
Dingbat
pfm Member
Lest anyone take my comment seriously - that was meant in jest. Nothing wrong with Rega ( which I've never heard), nor other UK brands like Arcam or Cyrus (which I've heard and thought quite decent). I've heard a Leema Tucana II and quite liked the sound, but I wasn't totally convinced it, or something else from another brand would be a big upgrade from an SN2. Going sideways would be pointless, or even sideways and a bit up. While I had the Hicap on the SN2, all the time I was listening, I was considering carefully whether there was anything about the sound I disliked. I concluded it still worked for me.
I completely agree on the price of new Naim, and the New Classic in Australia seems more obscenely overpriced than the older stuff. If I had to pay that, I would definitely jump ship if I wanted to upgrade, or just stick with what I have. Second hand is definitely the way to go. It was a bit more than I was planning to spend, but going for anything else at a similar level wouldn't have cost much less.
Listening right now to the Propaganda album by Ted SIrota's Rebel Souls (it's jazz), and the instrumental timbres are lovely. The trumpets sound particularly glorious.