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End Game Digital (2023)

However, upgrading my Qutest's power supply scratched that itch and then some. Having only heard a DAVE for a short period, it was very good with stock PS, but I'm concerned it would be enough of a leap forward for the outlay.

My Chord journey started with the Hugo 1 and for the money a big leap in performance over the Naim nDac.
Eventually I ended up with a Qutest then added the MRCU PSU this brought a nice lift over the supplied wall wart. The big lift was adding an MScaler to the Qutest I appreciate the MScaler is 3x the cost of the Qutest but transformed my view on digital replay.

Then to my current end game setup the MScaler, DAVE with Wave Storm interconnects no desire to change to anything else.

Listened to the Naim ND555 and Linn Klimax DSM a few times but when I plonk myself in front of the DAVE it's not going anywhere.
 
I had the very same conversation with Bruno when Mola bought out their Kaluga monoblocs, very tricky even for ‘honest’ manufacturers such as Bruno and Daniel Weiss, I think they would stress, features, aesthetic as well as the measured performance.
Keith

I bet they were really interested what a two bob hifi dealer working out of his living room thought :)
 
You’ll have to ask @RossB about the Bricasti. Ouch indeed on the price so unlikely I’ll try one just to satisfy my curiosity. You’re right about other components in the room potentially having a bigger effect than DAC. Perhaps DACs are the thing to look at after we have sorted out, speakers, amps and room?

I too feel DACs should be the last to look at after all other components and speakers are sorted out. However, in my case the QBD76 was so good that I ended up upgrading the whole system after I bought it about 5 years ago. The Chord still remains in my system today but I have added a Luxman DA-06 to the mix late last year. Both are staying for good.
 
Have you tried Tidal or Qobuz? There’s definitely a noticeable step up from Spotify in sound quality. If you have tried, how do you find them? Genuinely curious.

I have just tried Spotify through my Pi running ROPIEEE Xl. It wasn’t at all bad and more than acceptable. Not the same as CD rips or Tidal though. (Qobuz test to follow)

Previously I tried Spotify through the same Pi (4 with Allo DigiOne Sig) with Volumio and Spotify wasn’t acceptable to my ears at that point. Hardly definitive but the differences are enough for me to suggest maybe ROPIEEE XL is worth you having a dabble with (if you haven’t tried already)

Cheers

I haven't, mainly because I use volumio and would have to get a subscription for the plugins I think. I've got no interest tbh. Spotify does the job for me

Plus I like volumio too much to change, but I'll take a look at it because why not. Not saying volumio is the best, just that it and Spotify connect works for me.

I'll never buy a dedicated streamer.
 
So, John, let's take something like an Auralic, £2K+ or £4K+. Nice case and isolation, probably marginal gains, good power supplies, gains here? An app that works, a screen that works, good connectivity. I understand why people buy them. Do they sound better than my laptop into a 'competently engineered' dac, to borrow Keith's phrase. I don't know - do you?
I don't know. How could I? I haven't heard either and if you are referring to your definition of "better" then there's no guarantee it will coincide with mine. Indeed my definition of "better" (audibly) is about comparing how kit performs against my nearest concert hall experience - I just don't do the kit vs kit comparisons that many others do. And I never advocate my way of pursuing the hobby - I just report it for anyone to read or ignore as they please.

Related to similar integrated digital products I did have a demo of the Innuos Zenith at my dealer and I attended an open day there with the dCS people showing the Bartók. Both were fine products indeed but not tempting. They still integrate application functions I do not regard as likely to be long-lived. I am still of the view that "end-game" can work with a separate DAC but not elsewhere in a digital audio system - that was my main point.
Yes, 'end-game' should have said 'state of the ar't. How long will a Dave remain that, (presumably Rob Watts thinks until Dave 2), or is it now beaten by other solutions? dCS appeals because they upgrade the hardware and software, hopefully keeping it current. The price is rather less appealing.
In some definitions of "state-of-the-art", DAVE has been well superseded. But it's still an excellent DAC to my ears and could easily be "end-game". However on my definition of "better", above, I was also not tempted away from what I have.
 
Thanks for your reply, John. I don't think we are that far apart. Not saying you do, but I try not fall into the measurementalist approach of deciding how something will sound from looking at graphs instead of listening to it.
 
I really like my Innuos Mini with LPS, just sounds great. Would like to listen to a Zenith at some point but will upgrade speakers first as I have an irrational urge to upgrade my ATC 40s to 50s.

I think it’s wise to keep Dac separate from streamer in some ways but Linn do seem to have cracked it with the DSM range.
 
Thanks for your reply, John. I don't think we are that far apart. Not saying you do, but I try not fall into the measurementalist approach of deciding how something will sound from looking at graphs instead of listening to it.
Electrical components are entirely characterised by their measurements, there is no magic sauce.
Keith
 
Electrical components are entirely characterised by their measurements, there is no magic sauce.
Keith
That might be true but who is doing a complete set of the necessary measurements and continuously checking the results against audibility? Reviews on ASR certainly don’t; the Mini DSP SHD was supposedly tested but the ADC on the unit wasn’t - incomplete. The Lyngdorf 3400 was supposedly tested but not the impulse correction of the room correction, why not? The reviewer didn’t believe in it! That’s the problem with the measurement only approach; it has to be done in depth with an open mind, continuously checking the results to see what is audible. Believing that what is audible was established 30 years ago is just not good enough.

Of course, if you believe that a limited suite of measurements tell all then you won’t be able to hear any difference between products. You are of course entitled to your blind (or should that be) deaf faith but I find an open minded approach, albeit dosed with a fair amount of cynicism far more valuable. Let measurements, such as they are, inform us but they aren’t necessarily some magic sauce that tells the whole story - to think that requires faith…
 
Electrical components are entirely characterised by their measurements, there is no magic sauce.
That may be true with caveats but astonishingly ignores human factors.

This is a hobby. With an open mind and open eyes human factors are clearly very important. The reasons why and the ways in which different people enjoy using their electrical components vary widely and are not measurable.
 
That may be true with caveats but astonishingly ignores human factors.

This is a hobby. With an open mind and open eyes human factors are clearly very important. The reasons why and the ways in which different people enjoy using their electrical components vary widely and are not measurable.
Absolutely right. I think the measurements are all that is needed approach, and very narrow definitions of what "hifi" is, might have more merit if we listeners were all identical robots. Last time I looked we aren't, even if some post as if they are bots!

Obviously measurements are of great importance but imho they have to be considered with regard to the original sound or performance and the listener. If one accepts that (and I appreciate that many won't or can't) then it stands to reason that there is no one standard or set of measurements that suits all.
 
In some definitions of "state-of-the-art", DAVE has been well superseded. But it's still an excellent DAC to my ears and could easily be "end-game". However on my definition of "better", above, I was also not tempted away from what I have.

Most of the (high performance) DACs mentioned in this topic have one thing in common: they upconvert the Redbook input signal to high-rate DSD before feeding a SDM D/A chip or a proprietary resistor-ladder.
Chord is perhaps the only exception because it 'only' upsamples to high-rate PCM.

A DAC is composed of three major elements: input interface, DSP, D/A conversion stage, analogue stage. In my view and experience it makes sense to move the DSP from the DAC to the Streamer.
dCS, Esoteric and Chord have tried placing the DSP in an external box but as can be observed by measurements of the MScaler jitter can be an issue, which might be related to why many Dave users have given up on the MScaler in favour of offline upsampling to high rates with PGGB.
Upconverting prior to feeding has several advantages: far more processing power than is currently available though FPGA, future-proofness, Digital Room Correction, much better value-for-money, bypassing the DAC's internal DSP and sigma-delta modulator for improved measured performance and removing the electrical noise-generating processing from the DAC, the possibility to address electrical noise before the DAC, the possibility to minimise issues created in the ADC stage and permanently embedded in the recording.
 
Curious if anyone has compared high-end DACs to the best pro audio converters. It seems like it's almost impossible to spend more than £5k on a 2 channel converter.

I'm thinking of stuff like the Dangerous Music Convert-2 which seems to have a bit of a cult following.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/dangerous_music_convert_2.htm
https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/109/convert-2-convert-8-converters/

What do you mean by "best"?
Benchmark and RME make some of the best measuring pro-audio DACs but they're not universally loved by the audiophile community.
 


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