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End Game Digital (2023)

I owned the DAVE with M Scaler for a year, and also spent a week with a Bartok.

I can see why some people like the Bartok, but for me it epitomises the hifi vs music debate. The Bartok was pure hifi. A big, detailed, smooth sound, but utterly, utterly boring. Colourless, lacking dynamics, I kept it for a week but knew within 2 minutes that it would go back to the shop.

I kept the DAVE/M Scaler for about a year. To be fair, the M Scaler makes it worse. It certainly makes a difference, but if a skeletal, bleached, hyper-detailed image is the goal, then the M Scaler is one way to achieve it. On its own, the DAVE sounds okay, but still a bit thin, lean, and has a weird way with transients such as cymbols, which sound over-emphasised and splashy.

I have been through many DACs over the last few years in addition to the ones above - including the Ayre QX5, Chord TT2, Mytek Manhattan, Nagra Tube DAC, and numerous others. I have settled on a Bricasti M3, which is one of the "cheaper" DACs I have owned, but it seems to do everything right and has none of the irritating peculiarities of sound typical of most "high end" DACs.
It’s fascinating how differently we perceive sound. There is no right or wrong in this but it does illustrate why, when considering a purchase, it is wise to take into account the listener and eschew the measurements only crusaders.

You have got me wondering how a Bricasti would sound in my system :eek:. No, I mustn’t, really I mustn’t!
 
Proud owner of a dCS Rossini (just Apex'd) with clock. That's end-game for me. The Vivaldi line is better but too much dosh.
Brother has a Playback Design which is damned good. Mola Mola also reputed to be excellent.

I arrived at dCS via Chord and Auralic and really don't recognise the statement that dCS is smooth and boring, but we all have different systems and different ears.
 
I often wonder what I am missing out on using a raspberry pi over an expensive streamer but never for long. This is, obviously, of no use to you, Alex.

I have wondered what I might be missing out on by keeping my Rpi 3 when I could be running the latest Rpi 4, if only I could get one!
 
We should get him here and ask him. Could you do the introductions? :)

Edited to add; I’d ask him why he would go to the bother of creating an FPGA based DAC when he could have just used an off the shelf DAC chip.
I don’t know, remember though that the Tambaqui is now a ten year old design, Started when Bruno was with Hypex ( Hypex/Mola same company) and then left unfinished when he set-up Kii.
Keith
 
I have wondered what I might be missing out on by keeping my Rpi 3 when I could be running the latest Rpi 4, if only I could get one!

I bumped my volumio setup from a 3 to 4 a while back and I have no idea if it's better, but the idea of a separate usb and WiFi bus twitched my pants. Can't go wrong really
 
I kept the DAVE/M Scaler for about a year. To be fair, the M Scaler makes it worse. It certainly makes a difference, but if a skeletal, bleached, hyper-detailed image is the goal, then the M Scaler is one way to achieve it. On its own, the DAVE sounds okay, but still a bit thin, lean, and has a weird way with transients such as cymbols, which sound over-emphasised and splashy.

May I ask what speakers were used on the DAVE/M Scaler. Just curious, thanks.
 
It’s fascinating how differently we perceive sound. There is no right or wrong in this but it does illustrate why, when considering a purchase, it is wise to take into account the listener and eschew the measurements only crusaders.

You have got me wondering how a Bricasti would sound in my system :eek:. No, I mustn’t, really I mustn’t!

Experiences will not be the same although that one component, in this case Chord DAVE is used since the other components particularly speakers, and room are different. Having said that, if you happen to have the Bricasti in your system, I would be interested in your thoughts. But at £4,999, ouch!
 
No, and I really should have had a listen to dcs.

I did have a listen to a Chord Dave with Jacobs power supply but there was not enough benefit for the money to upgrade from my m scaler/TT2. My route into the Chord way of doing things was through the Qutest which had the desirable quality of stopping me worrying about why the sound wasn’t quite right. From there I bought an ex dem TT2 as much for the pre amp and volume control by my chair as hope in there being much difference in sound quality. I did a level matched blind comparison between Qutest and TT2 and for my ears there was a small difference and I could repeatedly pick out which was which although I preferred one on some tracks and the other on other tracks. Comparison is the thief of joy and the TT2 gave me a volume control at my finger tips. The m scaler (that thing that purite crusader calls an expensive placebo :D) takes the whole thing to different level and miles away from my wall paper stripping Benchmark DAC 1 HDR. Great natural sound which takes me into, rather than distracts from, the music. I think Rob Watts is on to something with his approach, such a shame he is subjected to such online abuse from those who have long lost the ability to take a balanced view.

So I really should have had a listen to a dcs but I am more than happy with where I’ve ended up.

I had been considering upgrading from my Qutest to a TT2 (with an obvious vision for HMS down the road) after hearing the TT2 at my dealer. As you heard, subtle improvements... but many of them, in aggregate. However, upgrading my Qutest's power supply scratched that itch and then some. Having only heard a DAVE for a short period, it was very good with stock PS, but I'm concerned it would be enough of a leap forward for the outlay.

I remain a big fan of Meitner and EMMLabs, MSB, and TotalDac. All for different reasons.
 
I had been considering upgrading from my Qutest to a TT2 (with an obvious vision for HMS down the road) after hearing the TT2 at my dealer. As you heard, subtle improvements... but many of them, in aggregate. However, upgrading my Qutest's power supply scratched that itch and then some. Having only heard a DAVE for a short period, it was very good with stock PS, but I'm concerned it would be enough of a leap forward for the outlay.

I remain a big fan of Meitner and EMMLabs, MSB, and TotalDac. All for different reasons.
What did you upgrade Qutest power supply to? Could be an interesting thing for me to consider - although I’m already happy with the Qutest.
 
I had been considering upgrading from my Qutest to a TT2 (with an obvious vision for HMS down the road) after hearing the TT2 at my dealer. As you heard, subtle improvements... but many of them, in aggregate. However, upgrading my Qutest's power supply scratched that itch and then some. Having only heard a DAVE for a short period, it was very good with stock PS, but I'm concerned it would be enough of a leap forward for the outlay.

I remain a big fan of Meitner and EMMLabs, MSB, and TotalDac. All for different reasons.
I personally find that I respond differently when concentrating on the sound, when making comparisons, to settling back, forgetting the sound per se and enjoying the music. I have found the differences small when concentrating on the sound but large when listening to music, which does rather leave one as prey to some who “believe” they sound the same! I reckon the Qutest is a very good DAC and I wouldn’t upgrade to the TT2 unless a pre amp, headphone sockets, remote or balanced output required. I have found the m scaler a worthwhile upgrade. On a few tracks one wonders what all the fuss is about but listen to Mahan Esfahani playing Bach on the harpsichord and it becomes much easier to follow the lines in the music and thus makes for a much more enjoyable experience - assuming one can cope with a sound that Thomas Beecham once likened to two cats copulating on a tin roof. The m scaler helps to reproduce transients well and with a great deal of resolution but, and this the clever bit, in a natural unfatiguing way. Good detail rather than tiring detail and not, at least with my speakers and amp, at all thin sounding.
 
Experiences will not be the same although that one component, in this case Chord DAVE is used since the other components particularly speakers, and room are different. Having said that, if you happen to have the Bricasti in your system, I would be interested in your thoughts. But at £4,999, ouch!
You’ll have to ask @RossB about the Bricasti. Ouch indeed on the price so unlikely I’ll try one just to satisfy my curiosity. You’re right about other components in the room potentially having a bigger effect than DAC. Perhaps DACs are the thing to look at after we have sorted out, speakers, amps and room?
 
I bumped my volumio setup from a 3 to 4 a while back and I have no idea if it's better, but the idea of a separate usb and WiFi bus twitched my pants. Can't go wrong really
Have you tried Tidal or Qobuz? There’s definitely a noticeable step up from Spotify in sound quality. If you have tried, how do you find them? Genuinely curious.

I have just tried Spotify through my Pi running ROPIEEE Xl. It wasn’t at all bad and more than acceptable. Not the same as CD rips or Tidal though. (Qobuz test to follow)

Previously I tried Spotify through the same Pi (4 with Allo DigiOne Sig) with Volumio and Spotify wasn’t acceptable to my ears at that point. Hardly definitive but the differences are enough for me to suggest maybe ROPIEEE XL is worth you having a dabble with (if you haven’t tried already)

Cheers
 
What did you upgrade Qutest power supply to? Could be an interesting thing for me to consider - although I’m already happy with the Qutest.

Plixir Elite BDC 5V/2A with their Statement DC cable. Huge improvement from the Allo Shanti, which was itself a noticeable improvement over the stock SMPS.

I personally find that I respond differently when concentrating on the sound, when making comparisons, to settling back, forgetting the sound per se and enjoying the music. I have found the differences small when concentrating on the sound but large when listening to music, which does rather leave one as prey to some who “believe” they sound the same! I reckon the Qutest is a very good DAC and I wouldn’t upgrade to the TT2 unless a pre amp, headphone sockets, remote or balanced output required. I have found the m scaler a worthwhile upgrade. On a few tracks one wonders what all the fuss is about but listen to Mahan Esfahani playing Bach on the harpsichord and it becomes much easier to follow the lines in the music and thus makes for a much more enjoyable experience - assuming one can cope with a sound that Thomas Beecham once likened to two cats copulating on a tin roof. The m scaler helps to reproduce transients well and with a great deal of resolution but, and this the clever bit, in a natural unfatiguing way. Good detail rather than tiring detail and not, at least with my speakers and amp, at all thin sounding.

Well said. After hearing an HMS with a Qutest and a TT2 (in a full Naim system), I really did fall in love.

However, despite going a very different path (Denafrips GAIA DDC and Qutest upgraded LPS), I have arrived at a very very similar presentation to the TT2 + HMS. Nearly exactly as you describe (and as I heard in person) with the addition of the HMS to the Qutest; despite using completely different technical mechanisms to go about it.
 
Why, because of the price difference? If that was your thinking then you need to become much more cynical; this is the hi fi industry we are talking about . . .
Hi Ian, wasn’t really based on price, my thoughts were that all the efforts put into making an expensive streamer must add up to a difference compared with something that hasn’t had the same level of effort put into it.
 
Hi Ian, wasn’t really based on price, my thoughts were that all the efforts put into making an expensive streamer must add up to a difference compared with something that hasn’t had the same level of effort put into it.
IME "expensive", "lots of effort" and "better" don't automatically go hand in hand either. Observation tells me that good marketing arranges for that disconnect to be exploitable.

The digital transport parts of a streamer have a simple function:
  • manage a library of digital audio sources.
  • have a means for the user to select a source.
  • have a means to deliver an accurate data stream from that source to a DAC with low enough noise that the DAC can ignore.
Effort is required to do these but IME there is no particular difficulty that necessitates "expensive" and IMHO there is no "better" once you have achieved the above.

The digital transport parts of a streamer are elements of the digital chain where IMHO the "end game" basis (phrases used by the OP) is too transitory to justify "expensive", so I do not buy digital transport on that basis.

A good DAC is likely to be less transitory these days if someone wants to buy as "end game" or "expensive". But the Chord DAVE story shows that "state-of-the-art" is still somewhat transitory (but it was an excellent DAC when I heard it and it remains so).
 
So, John, let's take something like an Auralic, £2K+ or £4K+. Nice case and isolation, probably marginal gains, good power supplies, gains here? An app that works, a screen that works, good connectivity. I understand why people buy them. Do they sound better than my laptop into a 'competently engineered' dac, to borrow Keith's phrase. I don't know - do you?

Yes, 'end-game' should have said 'state of the ar't. How long will a Dave remain that, (presumably Rob Watts thinks until Dave 2), or is it now beaten by other solutions? dCS appeals because they upgrade the hardware and software, hopefully keeping it current. The price is rather less appealing.
 


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