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Ukraine V

Likening Russian to sheep is intolerant

Referring to Slavs in the diminutive is intolerant

13% is not 90%

Nobody mentioned Saudi Arabia

No maligning going on here, just questioning what appears to be an intolerant post. Anyway, happy to see you taking a stand against maligning another member’s character, perhaps you’ll stop doing it yourself from now on?

My post made no reference to his use of the pejorative terms sheeple or little so not guilty as charged regarding your first couple of points.

On the third point, I wonder how many of the 87% who declared a religion actually attend weekly formal gatherings. I know lots of people who put CofE down in the UK census but who aren't religious.

KSA was proffered as a fundamental religious country for comparison purposes with Russia which obviously isn't in the same league.

The last bit...where does saying someone has zero integrity fit into the realm of not maligning other members.
 
I’ve seen some content from the US Christian fundamentalist far-right very firmly backing Putin due to his ‘standing up for white Christians and against degeneracy’ etc (i.e. pure fascism). I can’t remember where I saw it so can’t link, but on ‘left tube’ somewhere (e.g. Beau, Vaush, Keffals etc), and many examples. Fox News/Daily Wire are running with pretty much ‘an enemy of the trans people must be our friends’ type idiocy that they use to attack Biden, UN, Nato etc. “Moral degeneracy” is back as a key right-wing trigger again. A psychopathic dictator flattening whole cities in Ukraine and Syria is clearly better from a ‘Christian values’ perspective than a drag show in middle America.
I believe that some Republicans have taken to wearing T-shirts emblazoned with "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat". I'm quite sure that Putin is catering to these people.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/07/opinion/russia-ukraine-us-tanks.html

Russia and Ukraine Have Incentives to Negotiate. The U.S. Has Other Plans.


The United States’ recent promise to ship advanced M1 Abrams battle tanks to Ukraine was a swift response to a serious problem. The problem is that Ukraine is losing the war. Not, as far as we can tell, because its soldiers are fighting poorly or its people have lost heart, but because the war has settled into a World War I-style battle of attrition, complete with carefully dug trenches and relatively stable fronts.


Such wars tend to be won — as indeed World War I was — by the side with the demographic and industrial resources to hold out longest. Russia has more than three times Ukraine’s population, an intact economy and superior military technology. At the same time, Russia has its own problems; until recently, a shortage of soldiers and the vulnerability of its arms depots to missile strikes have slowed its westward progress. Both sides have incentives to come to the negotiating table.

The Biden administration has other plans. It is betting that by providing tanks it can improve Ukraine’s chances of winning the war. In a sense, the idea is to fast-forward history, from World War I’s battles of position to World War II’s battles of movement. It is a plausible strategy: Eighty years ago, the tanks of Hitler and Stalin revolutionized warfare not far from the territory being fought over today.

But the Biden strategy has a bad name: escalation. Beyond a certain point, the United States is no longer “helping” or “advising” or “supplying” the Ukrainians, the way it did, say, the Afghan mujahedeen during the Cold War. It is replacing Ukraine as Russia’s main battlefield adversary. It is hard to say when that point will be reached or whether it has been already. With whom is Russia at war — Ukraine or the United States? Russia started the war between Russia and Ukraine. Who started the war between Russia and the United States?

This sudden policy lurch has the look of an accident. The Biden administration sought for weeks to convince Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany to provide Ukraine with his country’s Leopard 2 tanks. It was a hard sell. Back in the 1980s when Mr. Scholz, a Social Democrat, was campaigning for European disarmament as a member of his party’s Young Socialist wing, he probably didn’t picture himself in the role of the first chancellor since Hitler to send German tanks into battle on the Russian front.

Mr. Scholz refused to release the Leopards unless the United States released its own best tanks. His desire to move in lock step with the United States surely has something to do with Germany’s dark past. But it may also rest on fears of being rolled. Twice this century, Germany has refused to be dragged into a war to protect the world from an evil dictator: Chancellor Gerhard Schröder led the opposition to George W. Bush’s Iraq invasion in 2003, and in 2011, Mr. Schröder’s successor, Angela Merkel, dissented from the Anglo-Franco-American view that an invasion of Libya would be required to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi from committing a genocide. The German view proved wiser in both instances.

Perhaps this crusade is different. Perhaps not. Mr. Scholz, in the end, acquiesced in the request for tanks. But by insisting that the United States also pledge its own tanks, he offered at least token resistance.

In an age of smart devices, robotics and remote control, the United States’ involvement in the war has always been greater than it appeared. The computer-guided rocket artillery that Ukraine has received from the United States may seem analogous to the horses and rifles that a government might have sent to back an insurgency in the old days. They look at first like traditional weapons, albeit advanced ones.

But there is an important difference. Most of the new weapons’ destructive power comes from their being bound into an American information network, a package of services that keeps working independently of the warrior and will not be fully shared with the warrior. So the United States is participating in these military operations at the moment they happen. It is fighting.

Last spring, Ukraine shocked the Russian navy by using American targeting information to sink the Moskva, a Black Sea missile cruiser. Only months into the war did Russians face up to the fact that officers using their personal cellphones were regularly getting blown up. This past New Year’s Eve, a dormitory full of fresh Russian army recruits in the city of Makiivka was hit by missiles at the crack of midnight, presumably just as the young men were calling their friends and loved ones to wish them the joys of the coming year. The attack killed 89, according to Russian authorities — more than 300, according to the British Ministry of defense, which accused Russian authorities of “deliberate lying” about the attack to minimize their losses.

After such episodes, Russia’s leaders are unlikely to feel that the resistance they are meeting comes from Ukraine. The role of the United States is considerably more active than merely responding to Ukrainian “requests” for this or that. Having itself designed the weaponry in most cases, the United States may have a better sense of which tech solutions are appropriate to local battlefield challenges.

Abrams tanks require experienced technicians for training and repair. Will these technicians be brought onto the battlefield from the United States? Then we will have a situation analogous to the introduction of “advisers” into Vietnam in the early 1960s. “This is not an offensive threat to Russia,” President Biden said of the Abrams tank shipments last month. He’s entitled to his opinion, but it is probably not shared by the Russian leadership.

President Biden’s own advisers are divided on how aggressively to pursue the war. Some even propose to chase Russia out of Crimea. That would promise a new kind of mission for NATO: the conquest, annexation and garrisoning of a population that doesn’t want it.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has to do with a complicated set of post-Cold War historical trends (like America’s striking post-Cold War rise and its more recent relative decline) and economic accidents (like the vicissitudes of fossil fuel prices). But it is also the latest chapter of an ongoing geostrategic story in which the plot has changed little over the centuries: The largest country by area on the planet has no reliable exit into the world. The most reliable route runs through the Black Sea, where it crosses the trade routes that link the civilizations of Asia to the civilizations of Europe. There, or thereabouts, Russian forces clashed with the armies of many Turkish sultans in the 17th and 18th centuries, Lord Palmerston of Britain in the 19th and Hitler in the 20th.

Speaking last week at the 80th anniversary of the Soviet victory over Germany at the battle of Stalingrad, President Vladimir Putin of Russia described the present war as a similar effort. Russians say the war is about preventing the installation of an enemy military stronghold on the Black Sea, strong enough to close off what has for centuries been Russia’s main access to the outside world. Without Ukraine, Russia can be turned into a vassal state. That NATO intends to bring about the subjugation, breakup or even extinction of Russia may be true or false — but it will not sound implausible to a Russian.


Many Americans cannot resist describing Mr. Putin as a “barbarian” and his invasion of Ukraine as a “war of aggression.” For their part Russians say this is a war in which Russia is fighting for its survival and against the United States in an unfair global order in which the United States enjoys unearned privileges.

We should not forget that, whatever values each side may bring to it, this war is not at heart a clash of values. It is a classic interstate war over territory and power, occurring at a border between empires. In this confrontation Mr. Putin and his Russia have fewer good options for backing down than American policymakers seem to realize, and more incentives to follow the United States all the way up the ladder of escalation.
I read that article, but although Christopher Catherwood is a renowned and respected historian, he also has strong religious views, and some of his books (some of which I've read) are slanted from this perspective. To me, this article has a curious quality of hedging his bets. He wants to say that this is a deliberate US imperialist war against Russia, but the facts on the ground don't allow him to come right out and unequivocally say it.

For my part, I think Putin is indeed a barbarian, and that this is not Russia fighting for survival (which Putin must know to be true), but clearly a war of aggrandisment (and self-aggrandisment).
 
He wants to say that this is a deliberate US imperialist war against Russia, but the facts on the ground don't allow him to come right out and unequivocally say it.

Yes, he wanted to do what he did--produce a spun, at core polemical argument against the Western stand against Putin. He has a career dressing up the mastheads of publications wanting at least one 'right wing intellectual journalist' there. I don't think that's a good enough reason for the NYT to platform him, because this piece does not convince me he's an honest intellectual. His reasoning is motivated. He wants to do stuff.
 
That reads like a racist rant. Likening all Russians to sheep and referring to all Slavs in the diminutive, really is quite hateful while deploring a lack of ‘religiosity’ sounds intolerant and the 90% atheist remark is, according to Wikipedia at least, very wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Russia
The atheist remark is correct, since Wikipedia results are based on self reporting, which is severely impacted by... lying. "Little Slavs" is what Russians themselves call anyone whose language they remotely understand. If you want to know what most Russians *think* about Ukranians, Serbs, Poles and Hungarians look no further than Putin's "historical" screeds, which are well received by the population. Consider that majority of Russians don't even recognize the right of Ukranians to have their own nation - same for Belorussians, Moldovans and the Baltic nations.

In order to understand Russia you have had to live there for a long time. Russia has offered extraordinary fertile soil for dictators that can tell it's people that the historical "injustice" that has befell them for centuries is about to change and the world's largest country can finally rule the world. Other than the strong desire for elusive glory, the population is totally depoliticized through basic natural selection (people who wanted rights were exterminated or left). Therefore, anyone who comes to power in that great land has 100+ million slaves (etymology of Slavs) and all the money in the world to launch whatever fabulous project he or his buddies can think up.

It's not by accident that two out of history's three world threatening systems (communist dictatorship and Russian naziysm) developed in this land. Actual power balance in the Russian empire has remained essentially feudal for centuries.
 
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My post made no reference to his use of the pejorative terms sheeple or little so not guilty as charged regarding your first couple of points.

On the third point, I wonder how many of the 87% who declared a religion actually attend weekly formal gatherings. I know lots of people who put CofE down in the UK census but who aren't religious.

KSA was proffered as a fundamental religious country for comparison purposes with Russia which obviously isn't in the same league.

The last bit...where does saying someone has zero integrity fit into the realm of not maligning other members.
About 5% of Russians actually attend church. So I would raise my atheist estimate to 95%, though only 13% are willing to say so. Saying you are "spiritual" and "religious" sounds so much better.

And keep in mind that Russian church is the extension of Putin's state - Russian Orthodox patriarch Kiryll is a million dollar watch wearing oligarch warmonger (In the best tradition of the most corrupt Catholic church centuries of the past), so the lonely 5% attendees are likely the most indoctrinated Putin's supporters.

One of the largest Russian churches is the official Armed Forces Church.

https://ghvs.ru/

Heros of Bucha welcome! Christ has risen.
 
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Johnson wants to give Ukraine everything. Now. As in this afternoon.

"We have more than 100 Typhoon jets. We have more than 100 Challenger 2 tanks. The best single use for any of these items is to deploy them now for the protection of the Ukrainians – not least because that is how we guarantee our own long-term security." https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nds-lee-anderson-zelenskiy-uk-politics-latest

He probably would as well. What a careless idiot. Should volunteer himself for the frontline.
 
Johnson wants to give Ukraine everything. Now. As in this afternoon.

"We have more than 100 Typhoon jets. We have more than 100 Challenger 2 tanks. The best single use for any of these items is to deploy them now for the protection of the Ukrainians – not least because that is how we guarantee our own long-term security." https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nds-lee-anderson-zelenskiy-uk-politics-latest

He probably would as well. What a careless idiot. Should volunteer himself for the frontline.
One of the rarest human qualities is to recognize that sometimes, someone you vehemently disagree with on most issues may be correct on this one.

The correct emotion to experience toward Ukraine is deep, deep gratitude. They are fighting and dying to protect all of us from the great expansionist evil that Putin's Russia has become.
 
Johnson wants to give Ukraine everything. Now. As in this afternoon.

"We have more than 100 Typhoon jets. We have more than 100 Challenger 2 tanks. The best single use for any of these items is to deploy them now for the protection of the Ukrainians – not least because that is how we guarantee our own long-term security." https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nds-lee-anderson-zelenskiy-uk-politics-latest

He probably would as well. What a careless idiot. Should volunteer himself for the frontline.
He would be something of a hazard in a trench.
 
One of the rarest human qualities is to recognize that sometimes, someone you vehemently disagree with on most issues may be correct on this one.

If he's honest and he's not. He probably still believes that Brexit was a magnificent thing to do and let's continue towards being the greatest British leader ever, larger than life, even than Churchill - the one who will finish Russia. He's clearly on a messianic trip - only that now he's not endangering Britain but the whole planet. Russians are just plain stupid - Israel showed how to deal with this kind of enemy.

The correct emotion to experience toward Ukraine is deep, deep gratitude. They are fighting and dying to protect all of us from the great expansionist evil that Putin's Russia has become.

Yep they're especially protecting you in Pensilvania or wherever...

Meanwhile, it seems that Liz Truss call to Biden wasn't (only) a Russian fiction...

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream?

Seymour Hersh says U.S. Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines.

The CIA argued that whatever was done, it would have to be covert. Everyone involved understood the stakes. “This is not kiddie stuff,” the source said. If the attack were traceable to the United States, “It’s an act of war.”

Biden supposedly had last-minute second thoughts about the timing of the explosions and allegedly ordered the field agents to change the C4 explosives from 48-hour timers to remote detonation. Hersh says this renewed concerns about the op’s legality.

Hersh’s anonymous source says Russia “failed to respond” perhaps because Moscow hopes to return the favor, one day, when it has the same capabilities.
 
If he's honest and he's not. He probably still believes that Brexit was a magnificent thing to do and let's continue towards...
......
Yep they're especially protecting you in Pensilvania or wherever...


https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream?

Seymour Hersh says U.S. Navy divers...
Like I said a rare quality.

Yes, Ukranians are protecting US citizens as we speak. And they are protecting you too, goofball.

And please no more Soviet (sorry Russian) propaganda dumped into the thread!

Hersh has been a reliable spreader for many years.
 
One of the rarest human qualities is to recognize that sometimes, someone you vehemently disagree with on most issues may be correct on this one.

The correct emotion to experience toward Ukraine is deep, deep gratitude. They are fighting and dying to protect all of us from the great expansionist evil that Putin's Russia has become.

Indeed. Imagine if the Kray twins, or Al Capone, or any other monster-gangster from the past were given control of a large army. Putin seems to operate with similar sense of morality.
 
@anubisgrau

Here's an article detailing some of what Seymour Hersh has achieved in his career, his investigative reporting, some of which was subsequently verified by other sources, the breaking of the story of the My Lai massacre just one example.

But his appears to be a classic case of an old man relying on his reputation to sell the stories he weaves, and subsequently dismantling it, due to him being unable to name any of his many sources or supply proof for his assertions. Which is one of the pointers in the article. In fact the author highlights a number of inconsistencies and contradictions relating to various of Hersh's claims.

https://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584473/seymour-hersh-osama-bin-laden

From what I've read thus far, my own take on this is that it is difficult to simply accept, to take at face value, what Hersh has to say, other than he is muddying the waters rather than providing any kind of clarity.

John
 
You think he lied in his NYT report about US army massacre in My Lay village in Vietnam for whom he got Pulitzer in 1970?

Or when he discovered Abu Ghraib atrocities?

OK, I hear you.
That's not surprising. You seem to have become worse over the years.
 
That reads like a racist rant. Likening all Russians to sheep and referring to all Slavs in the diminutive, really is quite hateful while deploring a lack of ‘religiosity’ sounds intolerant and the 90% atheist remark is, according to Wikipedia at least, very wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Russia
This requires a separate response.

There has been a media campaign in the West to paint Ukranians as racist and their nationalism as intolerant and dangerous. It didn't come from western politicians and political scientists - rather it has been transplanted by Russian propaganda and fellow travelers into our social media to seed doubt into "good" western mindsets so to lessen public support for Ukraine.

We have our own @anubisgrau here ferreting out any social media that shows Ukranians saying rude things about Russians as "proof of their inherent intolerance." The WW2 analogy would be republishing a German press article about liberation of Aushwitz circa 1945, titled "Dieting Camp Workers Use Abusive Language to Describe Camp Management, Once Again Demonstrating Their Inferiority."

If The Karmic System is paying attention, you are ****ing yourself for eternity, dude.

And it's easy to find Ex-Soviet citizens (Moscow and Petersburg born and bred, usually) who grew up thinking of all "Little Slavs" essentially as hobbits and dwarfs of Middle Earth and are honestly shocked to discover (apparently for the first time) that these funny little people fancy themselves like a real nation. Jews (especially Russian Jews) often harbor long held animosity toward Ukrainians over WW2 history. But that goes for Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Serbians and, of course, Germans. Jews hold grudges...

The idea of ethnic self determination was anathema during USSR and was forcefully eradicated for most of its history. In this case, imperialist necessity to subjugate new lands dovetailed perfectly with the doctrine of international atheist proletariat brotherhood and eventual communist world domination. It wasn't colonialism and subjugation, it was freedom and liberation!
 
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