freefallrob
pfm Member
I’ve done this and had the same result, they make the most difference with small signals.
LP12 vs 1200GR
- Thread starter clownfish
- Start date
chris@panteg
pfm Member
I remember having a similar experience when switching the supplied VDH cable on my old SME 309 to the Oyaide cable I've been using ever since, now on my SMEV .
Just finished a listening session and I'm now loving the GR more, much more!
It really is a cracker of a deck .
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
If you change cables I think it's important to change back and forth at least three times. By that I mean at least a-b-a-b. The reason is that sometimes freshly inserted cables have an advantage: freshly scraped contact surfaces.
I've just bought a 1210G and the RCA plugs are quite loose fitting at both ends despite being gold. Over months and years local tarnish on lesser plugs might affect conductance/capacitance. It's important to ensure that you're comparing like with like. Make sure lugs are tight and push them on a couple of times to ensure good contact. Then compare.
I've just bought a 1210G and the RCA plugs are quite loose fitting at both ends despite being gold. Over months and years local tarnish on lesser plugs might affect conductance/capacitance. It's important to ensure that you're comparing like with like. Make sure lugs are tight and push them on a couple of times to ensure good contact. Then compare.
chris@panteg
pfm Member
Yes good point,I think I will do that.
The plugs on the supplied cable are quite loose fitting, the MG HDX1 fits very tightly into the GR phono outputs.
Tony L
Administrator
If you are using an MM cartridge arm cable can make a simply massive and easily measurable difference as capacitance varies hugely between cables and it directly impacts the tonal balance of the cartridge. It can be a real make/break with some carts. Potentially many db of difference in the treble that can shift things too bright or too dull depending on the cartridge and phono stage in use.
chris@panteg
pfm Member
Thanks Tony, I have been thinking about getting a quality mm cart but at the moment I'm still using the AT33EV and it's with this cartridge going into my Puresound T10 and P10 phono combination that I noticed a what sounds like a fundamental difference.
But as ever I should/must switch back to remove any doubts or expectation bias/placebo?
Does the same apply to high output moving coil cartridges?
Tony L
Administrator
No, different generator technology. A high-output MC is still an MC. That’s not to say MCs are entirely immune to loading and capacitance, but they are exponentially less sensitive than MMs.
PS I suspect a key reason MMs fell out of fashion is a lot of the technical understanding needed to get them performing to their best was lost back in the minimalist ‘flat earth’ days. Even now few phono stages offer user configurable loading parameters. A shame as the technology is capable of far better than many think.
Clem Fandango
Helidoc
Hi Tony
This is very interesting information of which I was previously unaware. How can I therefore select an appropriate interconnect for my 1210GR or is it just trial and error?
I have noticed that using the supplied Technics RCA leads through Rega MM phono the bass is significantly less on the same track on vinyl than it is through my CD player (Rega Saturn). It still sounds great but I was shocked as to the difference. Is there a reliable rule of thumb regarding capacitance values and bass for example? Previously I was using a Chord interconnect but swapped it back to the supplied leads as Technics advises against using other interconnects. I wonder why this would be?
Many thanks.
Tony L
Administrator
It is more than that. You need to establish the specifications of the cartridge, phono stage, and arm wiring. The cartridge defines the rules, you need to ensure the things downstream match it.
The cartridge will almost certainly want to see a 47k load, this is pretty much standard these days. The thing that is up for grabs is capacitance. You need to establish what the Rega cart wants to see (I have no idea) and what your phono stage presents. This capacitance is expressed in picoFarads (pF).
As an example the current Ortofon 2M range has a specified capacitance of 150-300pF, but wants to be as close to 150pF as you can get it to my ears, maybe even lower. A typical arm cable has a capacitance of around 80-120pF, that means you need a phono stage with a very low input capacitance. Some phono stages have a high capacitance e.g. 220pF, even up to 470pF (old Shures like the V15 liked this).
There is no ‘standard’ but if your cart is sounding thin and bass-light this may well be the issue. Too much capacitance can make a MM cartridge sound very bright and spiky as it moves a resonance down into the audio range. Conversely too little can make things dull and lifeless. You to establish the parameters of the kit you are running.
PS FWIW I’ve found moving iron carts far less sensitive to capacitance than conventional MM, e.g. my current Nagaoka doesn’t seem to care, whereas the preceding Ortofon 540/II & 2M Black it was real make or break. They really sounded awful (thin and noisy) with too much capacitance.
The cartridge will almost certainly want to see a 47k load, this is pretty much standard these days. The thing that is up for grabs is capacitance. You need to establish what the Rega cart wants to see (I have no idea) and what your phono stage presents. This capacitance is expressed in picoFarads (pF).
As an example the current Ortofon 2M range has a specified capacitance of 150-300pF, but wants to be as close to 150pF as you can get it to my ears, maybe even lower. A typical arm cable has a capacitance of around 80-120pF, that means you need a phono stage with a very low input capacitance. Some phono stages have a high capacitance e.g. 220pF, even up to 470pF (old Shures like the V15 liked this).
There is no ‘standard’ but if your cart is sounding thin and bass-light this may well be the issue. Too much capacitance can make a MM cartridge sound very bright and spiky as it moves a resonance down into the audio range. Conversely too little can make things dull and lifeless. You to establish the parameters of the kit you are running.
PS FWIW I’ve found moving iron carts far less sensitive to capacitance than conventional MM, e.g. my current Nagaoka doesn’t seem to care, whereas the preceding Ortofon 540/II & 2M Black it was real make or break. They really sounded awful (thin and noisy) with too much capacitance.
clownfish
It's all in the details
Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends!
Time for an update
My LP12 is now with its new owner. I was very sad to see it go but the more I played records on the GR the easier the decision became. I loved my LP12 but it was clear that in my system, my room, with my music the GR was the winner.
In its largely untouched, original 1983 condition (except for a service, a new DV cart and a Herc II) it was pretty much perfect with the 42/110 and Kans I started it alongside. With my current kit of Luxman 505 Ux II and Proac D20R the system balance was no longer present. The musicality and wonderful flow of the LP12 hadn't wained, but the bloom that was so essential with the flat earth kit had become too intrusive for me. The GR has provided the tonal balance I missed ... and so much more besides!
Now there is just one more thing to try. Will the Technics SL1200GR and DV 20X2L work together? So far I've had the opportunity to fit the DV 20X2L to the Technics headshell and grab a brief listen, which has proved more than a little interesting! I need to play a wider range of records over the next few days and experiment with one or two things to ensure I'm getting the best from the DV, but I'm hopeful I may get something quite special out of this. Back soon.
Time for an update
My LP12 is now with its new owner. I was very sad to see it go but the more I played records on the GR the easier the decision became. I loved my LP12 but it was clear that in my system, my room, with my music the GR was the winner.
In its largely untouched, original 1983 condition (except for a service, a new DV cart and a Herc II) it was pretty much perfect with the 42/110 and Kans I started it alongside. With my current kit of Luxman 505 Ux II and Proac D20R the system balance was no longer present. The musicality and wonderful flow of the LP12 hadn't wained, but the bloom that was so essential with the flat earth kit had become too intrusive for me. The GR has provided the tonal balance I missed ... and so much more besides!
Now there is just one more thing to try. Will the Technics SL1200GR and DV 20X2L work together? So far I've had the opportunity to fit the DV 20X2L to the Technics headshell and grab a brief listen, which has proved more than a little interesting! I need to play a wider range of records over the next few days and experiment with one or two things to ensure I'm getting the best from the DV, but I'm hopeful I may get something quite special out of this. Back soon.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Congratulations on coming to a decision. I've always liked the classic Technics SL1200 since forever. I have even toyed with the idea of bringing home a 1200G to duke it out with my Frankenstein LP12, but none of the local shops stock one for home dems. That might be a blessing in disguise, for ignorance is bliss. I'm hoping to try a different solution to the only gripe (pitch stability) I have with the suspended fruit box, and that does not involve laying down too much money.
I'll see where that takes me. Chances are, it'll take something more fundamentally wrong or unsatisfying to break my 36 year (and counting) near blissful relationship with my LP12.
I'll see where that takes me. Chances are, it'll take something more fundamentally wrong or unsatisfying to break my 36 year (and counting) near blissful relationship with my LP12.
chris@panteg
pfm Member
I've been switched between my new GR/AT33EV and my Voyd SMEV Hana SL over the last week or so and it's been interesting.
One thing I can conclude is that there is no way I will be parting with my Voyd anytime soon!
Good though the GR is and it is very good, it doesn't even come close to challenging my Voyd SMEV !
Though of course it's an unfair comparison with the difference in arms and carts.
I suspect it might be a different story with the SMEV on the GR but I don't want to do that and it would look wrong being black on the silver Techie.
But the fundamental difference to my ears is that the Voyd seems to have this open airey quality with so much more life and energy, something along the lines that Tony was talking about with his experience with the 1200G.
The GR sounds more restrained and controlled in comparison .
Still keeping both decks and will continue to swap between them.
One thing I can conclude is that there is no way I will be parting with my Voyd anytime soon!
Good though the GR is and it is very good, it doesn't even come close to challenging my Voyd SMEV !
Though of course it's an unfair comparison with the difference in arms and carts.
I suspect it might be a different story with the SMEV on the GR but I don't want to do that and it would look wrong being black on the silver Techie.
But the fundamental difference to my ears is that the Voyd seems to have this open airey quality with so much more life and energy, something along the lines that Tony was talking about with his experience with the 1200G.
The GR sounds more restrained and controlled in comparison .
Still keeping both decks and will continue to swap between them.
Someone will tell you that you need to try the G!
I bought a (barely) damaged box GR last year as the P8/Ania seemed vulnerable to inquisitive grandchildren. Intended as a stop gap I liked it so had an Audiomods arm fitted married to the deck with a lovely Magna Audio ebony armboard. A normal Rega board won't fit . Prior to the Rega I had a Cymbiosis LP12 (Kore,MOSE,Nima,10X5) but decided I wanted a fit and forget turntable, hence the P8.
I haven't made direct comparisons, of course and the 3 decks have different turntables, arms and cartridges (RibB AT95 ML in the case of the GR). I could happily live with all 3 turntables. The Linn and R8 have very different 'flavours'. The GR/AMophone sits between the two probably nearer the Linn but has more of the dyanmics of the Rega.
chris@panteg
pfm Member
Hopefully in a few weeks time I will get to hear one at a friend's with the Funk FX arm and Unami red so should be quite something.
But I still won't be buying one, sticking with my Voyd and use the GR from time to time.
Tim Jones
pfm Member
Am slightly haunted by the idea of a G with an RB3000 on it; especially if someone makes a fit with adjustable VTA. but I think I can guess the answer to that.
I suspect the "deadness" of the Technics decks isn't necessarily just due to their construction/mass, but also to what the motor is doing; just a trade-off.
I suspect the "deadness" of the Technics decks isn't necessarily just due to their construction/mass, but also to what the motor is doing; just a trade-off.
That'll be the Audiomods Six then.
Seanm
pfm Member
Ooh. Do report back. I feel the same way about the GR as against my Orbe as you do against your Voyd, but I wonder how much that has to do with the Orbe having an FX3 on it.
The Orbe will be playing a big part - it allows arms like the FX3, SME V, Audiomods 6 to perform at the top of their game, which in turn allows the cartridge to perform unhindered by noise and unwanted coloration.