Ukraine V

[Spraggons Den]

The bottom line is that there are no easy solutions,

Aye and bears shit in the woods, the Popes a catholic apparently and the Sun comes up in the morning.

but the gung ho, militaristic
muscle flexing

I don’t see much machismo or war mongering in the posts from the regular pro-Ukraine contributors on the thread and to insinuate it is a bit disingenuous. Most of us were critical of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for example and we also acknowledge that the conflict will most likely end with a group of men sitting round a table talking and then signing a bit of paper. In the meantime, and in contrast to you, Drood and Stop the War, we recognise the right of sovereign Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow armaments from any country willing to sell to them in order to defend itself.

 

[anubisgrau]

And no, we aren't sending NATO troops.

Sky News tonite:
'Are you suggesting putting boots on the ground in Ukraine?' - #KayBurley
Former Defence Minister Sir Gerald Howarth: "I think that is something we now have to consider, certainly if you were to put a NATO force in there."
https://twitter.com/i/status/1620340243898540032

 

[droodzilla]

I don’t see much machismo or war mongering in the posts from the regular pro-Ukraine contributors on the thread and to insinuate it is a bit disingenuous. Most of us were critical of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for example and we also acknowledge that the conflict will most likely end with a group of men sitting round a table talking and then signing a bit of paper. In the meantime, and in contrast to you, Droid and Stop the War, we recognise the right of sovereign Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow armaments from any country willing to sell to them in order to defend itself.

I recognise that right too.

I also recognise the right of other leaders to say no.

I suspect it would be irresponsible for any leader to assent to every single request Zelenskyy makes. Example:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...will-not-provide-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine

Might not be the final word but it sounds definitive for now.

Like a carefully choreoographed dance, unlike some of the more gung-ho posts on this thread.

And yeah, I do think there's a lot of machismo, armchair-general type posturing and fetishisation of military hardware here. It's not really my cup of tea, so I tend to notice it.

 

[anubisgrau]

"
IMF forecasts exemplify failures of Western sanctions on Russia
By Dominic Waghorn, international affairs editor

Comparisons between Russia and the UK in the light of IMF predictions for the British economy can be a little disingenuous.

The IMF expects Russia's economy to expand but that is from a pretty low bar. Russia's economy is rebounding from the low point caused when the West imposed sanctions after the invasion of Ukraine. It has to be said, however, that it did not contract at anywhere near the rates predicted last year by the IMF.

The figures are being leapt on by British politicians and observers for obvious reasons and a range of domestic agendas, but they also say a lot about the state and impact of Western sanctions on Ukraine. Before the invasion, Western governments hoped the threat of swift severe sanctions on Russia would deter Putin. That failed.

Since then, they have hoped that tightening sanctions would prompt a change of heart in the Kremlin. That has failed too, so far. Russia is clearly finding no difficulty in circumnavigating the restrictions, given the IMF's market upgrade of its economic outlook.

The West has failed to stem the flow of Russian oil. Oil exports are back to normal, with China and India picking up the barrels spurned by the West. But a new grey network of oil distribution has developed too, insured, transported and sold by more shadowy agents around the world.

Ordinary Russians have been hit by sanctions and inflation. Acquiring goods, especially foreign produced imports, from white goods to cars is increasingly challenging. But Russia is a hydrocarbon-dominated economy. As long as those hydrocarbons can continue reaching foreign markets, it will continue to survive the sanctions."

Source: https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2023/01/31/world-economic-outlook-update-january-2023

 

[DonQuixote99]

Even their own are not safe. Wonder if this will change her opinion?

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1620333993341353984

I predict that in a while she'll be on TV, looking like a terminal anorexic, to say it was Zelensky's terrorists who did it. Then she won't be seen again.

 

[DonQuixote99]

I recognise that right too.

I also recognise the right of other leaders to say no.

I suspect it would be irresponsible for any leader to assent to every single request Zelenskyy makes. Example:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...will-not-provide-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine

Might not be the final word but it sounds definitive for now.

Like a carefully choreoographed dance, unlike some of the more gung-ho posts on this thread.

And yeah, I do think there's a lot of machismo, armchair-general type posturing and fetishisation of military hardware here. It's not really my cup of tea, so I tend to notice it.

You correctly observe it has not been practice to say yes to everything. It is an avoidance-avoidance dilemma: the Western allies fear a Russian victory, and they also fear a Russia wounded too painfully. They are gradually thinking they have to decide which they fear more.

Now, do you think it would be responsible to say no to every single request? If not, then we're all posturing, aren't we?

 

[ks.234]

Aye and bears shit in the woods, the Popes a catholic apparently and the Sun comes up in the morning.



I don’t see much machismo or war mongering in the posts from the regular pro-Ukraine contributors on the thread and to insinuate it is a bit disingenuous. Most of us were critical of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for example and we also acknowledge that the conflict will most likely end with a group of men sitting round a table talking and then signing a bit of paper. In the meantime, and in contrast to you, Droid and Stop the War, we recognise the right of sovereign Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow armaments from any country willing to sell to them in order to defend itself.

You make things up again.

I have never denied the right of Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow arms and have no association with Stop the War

That you continue to make things up shows that you have no integrity whatsoever, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[NeilR]

And yeah, I do think there's a lot of machismo, armchair-general type posturing and fetishisation of military hardware here. It's not really my cup of tea, so I tend to notice it.

I think this is mostly in your head to be honest. You have a fixed idea on what you think many posters are like which is clouding your judgement.

 

[Spraggons Den]

You make things up again.

I have never denied the right of Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow arms and have no association with Stop the War

That you continue to make things up shows that you have no integrity whatsoever, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

Bit harsh and if you don’t mind me saying - the bit about me having no integrity - rather contradicts your constant refrain of “ address the post not the poster”.

Anyway, going back to the summer you made a number of posts arguing:

1. we should not send armaments to Ukraine because it would only intensify the war

2. the West was only sending weapons to Ukraine in order to propagate its proxy war with Russia

3. the West was equally to blame for the conflict as Russia reacted to NATOs continued expansion to the east since the end of the Cold War

Are you denying making these points?

 

[Spraggons Den]

And yeah, I do think there's a lot of machismo, armchair-general type posturing and fetishisation of military hardware here.

There was a bit early on with a few folk demanding NATO impose a no fly zone over Ukraine etc but those individuals have drifted away.

 

[Richard Lines]

The West has failed to stem the flow of Russian oil. Oil exports are back to normal, with China and India picking up the barrels spurned by the West. But a new grey network of oil distribution has developed too, insured, transported and sold by more shadowy agents around the world.

Going back a few years ago now, certainly around about 1980, I was on a BP tanker that loaded a cargo at Klaipėda. That certainly wasn't the port of loading that was on the Bill of Lading when we came to discharge it at Terneuzen............

Regards

Richard

 

[ks.234]

Bit harsh and if you don’t mind me saying - the bit about me having no integrity - rather contradicts your constant refrain of “ address the post not the poster”.

Anyway, going back to the summer you made a number of posts arguing:

1. we should not send armaments to Ukraine because it would only intensify the war

2. the West was only sending weapons to Ukraine in order to propagate its proxy war with Russia

3. the West was equally to blame for the conflict as Russia reacted to NATOs continued expansion to the east since the end of the Cold War

Are you denying making these points?

I have addressed your post directly, I have addressed your post that invented stuff. Show me where I have “denied the right of Ukraine to buy, beg or borrow arms” or supported Stop the War and I will apologise for saying you have no integrity.

Where you do not invent words, you twist them. Yes, I have posted considerable evidence in the form of cabinet memos that show that Jim Bakers ‘not one inch’ statement was said and said at least twice and that Gorbachev’s fear of NATO expansion needed addressing. But No, I have not “blamed the West equally” for the invasion. That is a false conflation.

 

[ks.234]

I think this is mostly in your head to be honest. You have a fixed idea on what you think many posters are like which is clouding your judgement.

Not true. You only have to go back half a dozen pages or so to see a page dominated by discussions about military hardware.

On fixed ideas about people, I look forward to condemnation of characterisations of people who dissent from the prevailing view of this thread as “hard left”, or of posters who invent things and misrepresent words in order to fix people into a false position.

 

[droodzilla]

You correctly observe it has not been practice to say yes to everything. It is an avoidance-avoidance dilemma: the Western allies fear a Russian victory, and they also fear a Russia wounded too painfully. They are gradually thinking they have to decide which they fear more.

Now, do you think it would be responsible to say no to every single request? If not, then we're all posturing, aren't we?

Probably not. Yes, probably.

We're just a bunch of old duffers talking shite on an obscure hi-fi forum, aren't we?

 

[droodzilla]

Not true. You only have to go back half a dozen pages or so to see a page dominated by discussions about military hardware.

On fixed ideas about people, I look forward to condemnation of characterisations of people who dissent from the prevailing view of this thread as “hard left”, or of posters who invent things and misrepresent words in order to fix people into a false position.

Aye. If there's misrepresentation going on, it's certainly a two-way street.

 

[droodzilla]

I think this is mostly in your head to be honest. You have a fixed idea on what you think many posters are like which is clouding your judgement.

Nah, there's plenty of gung-ho attitude on display. I mean, this was only three or four pages ago:

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/ukraine-v.269418/page-126#post-4913649

I thought the idea was to keep the conflict confined to Ukraine? Can't imagine Russia blowing up an arms factory in the UK would go down well.

Not having a go at that specific poster, who's usually one of the more level headed members of the forum.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Nah, there's plenty of gung-ho attitude on display. I mean, this was only three or four pages ago:

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/ukraine-v.269418/page-126#post-4913649

I thought the idea was to keep the conflict confined to Ukraine? Can't imagine Russia blowing up an arms factory in the UK would go down well.

Not having a go at that specific poster, who's usually one of the more level headed members of the forum.

Yes, Windsor Davies has a lot to answer for, especially homophobic remarks although I did quite like his rendition of Whispering Grass.

One of the cast went on to play the Landlord, Mike I think, in Only Fools and Horses. I stared in a Play for Today with him in the late 70s - lovely fella although dead now I think.

 

[droodzilla]

Yes, Windsor Davies has a lot to answer for, especially homophobic remarks although I did quite like his rendition of Whispering Grass.

One of the cast went on to play the Landlord, Mike I think, in Only Fools and Horses. I stared in a Play for Today with him in the late 70s - lovely fella although dead now I think.

Starred, I hope. It’s rude to stare.

 

[anubisgrau]

https://www.economist.com/finance-a...a-dodges-oil-sanctions-on-an-industrial-scale

How Russia dodges oil sanctions on an industrial scale

As another embargo looms, the grey trade is about to explode
Jan 29th 2023

Economist finds, to the West’s chagrin and Russia’s relief, that the new “shadow” shipping and financing infrastructure is robust and extensive. Rather than fade away, the grey market stands ready to expand when the next set of sanctions is enforced.

Russia’s exports took a knock after Europe’s initial salvo in December. Two months on, however, they have recovered to levels last seen in June. The volume of oil on water, which tends to climb when the market jams up, is back to normal. As expected, China and India are picking up most of the embargoed barrels. Yet there is a surprise: the volume of cargo with unknown destinations has jumped. Russian oil, once easy to track, is now being distributed through more shadowy channels

 

[Enfield boy]

Those Russian donations to the tory party paying off?