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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

I agree Brexit is a cult, however, those I call ‘hard remainers’ are also an uncompromising cult.

Standing against something that was clearly never going to work and has now been proven a failure beyond all doubt is anything but “a cult”. It is a perfectly rational and logical position. The only credible answer to Brexit is to try and reverse it as it was so clearly a mistake. Digging ever deeper into failure is insane. You being on the wrong side of that argument doesn’t alter this. The simple fact is the UK is losing vast amounts of productivity, employment, wealth, international standing, human rights and civil liberties by continuing to pursue what was only ever a failed right-wing nationalist project.

PS The penny is dropping, look at recent polling.
 
Standing against something that was clearly never going to work and has now been proven a failure beyond all doubt is anything but “a cult”. It is a perfectly rational and logical position. The only credible answer to Brexit is to try and reverse it as it was so clearly a mistake. Digging ever deeper into failure is insane. You being on the wrong side of that argument doesn’t alter this. The simple fact is the UK is losing vast amounts of productivity, employment, wealth, international standing, human rights and civil liberties by continuing to pursue what was only ever a failed right-wing nationalist project.

PS The penny is dropping, look at recent polling.
Omg. Wrong side of the argument? I'm not on the wrong side of the argument.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with campaigning to rejoin the EU or a soft brexit, but there is a whole load wrong with attempting to have ignored the result of a democratic referendum from day one of the result.

Definitely a cult.
 
It was sold as an advisory referendum, and yes, I do understand the political realities that rendered that unrealistic, but it’s not undemocratic to argue for not following the outcome of a, very tight, advisory vote.

What is undemocratic is selling something as advisory, but then manipulating things so as to make it binding, thereby subverting the checks and balances the democratic process would have put in place, such as a minimum threshold or winning margin for votes. If the vote sidestepped democracy any challenge to it is, almost by definition, in support of democracy. No more lectures about undemocratic remainers, please.
 
Omg. Wrong side of the argument? I'm not on the wrong side of the argument.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with campaigning to rejoin the EU or a soft brexit, but there is a whole load wrong with attempting to have ignored the result of a democratic referendum from day one of the result.

Definitely a cult.

If you agree that Brexit is just plain stupid self-harm idiocy to serve the Tory savage-capitalism fanatics and their clientele and that voters were cheated and/or dumb, you'll realise that there's no other way.
 
If you agree that Brexit is just plain stupid self-harm idiocy to serve the Tory savage-capitalism fanatics and their clientele and that voters were cheated and/or dumb, you'll realise that there's no other way.
What do you mean by 'no other way'?
 
I don’t disagree with your conclusion of how it is today, but what I’m on about is the division in society from day one after the referendum largely caused by those who tried to overturn the result instead of accepting it as they should have done. Throwing around labels of ‘racist gammon’ etc shows a real level of immaturity and some are still abusing anyone remotely critical of the EU, let alone those who voted to leave.

There is nothing wrong with campaigning for what we now know as a soft brexit, but that is a different thing altogether from trying to have the result ignored. Such attempts and attitude is a cause of division, it’s not just in politics that is poisonous. It will be repeated in Scotland if/when there is a referendum there on leaving the UK, quite shocking some don’t see that.


The Truss budget failed because the markets would not allow anything with a whiff of mmt about it, imo. I could be wrong, of course.

I agree Brexit is a cult, however, those I call ‘hard remainers’ are also an uncompromising cult.

I don’t take any notice of what Starmer says about rejoining the CU/SM, I prefer to wait to see what Labour actually does if elected. The fact is, if the party attaches itself to rejoining the EU in any form, or the SM/CU it will be monstered by the media and will lose the 2024 GE.

I remember several years ago you were suggesting that the vote to leave the EU meant a default hard Brexit:

imnb0bxoatks.png


I always considered this the insane option, especially given how close the result was. Do you still agree with that statement now, or have you changed your mind?
 
It was sold as an advisory referendum, and yes, I do understand the political realities that rendered that unrealistic, but it’s not undemocratic to argue for not following the outcome of a, very tight, advisory vote.

What is undemocratic is selling something as advisory, but then manipulating things so as to make it binding, thereby subverting the checks and balances the democratic process would have put in place, such as a minimum threshold or winning margin for votes. If the vote sidestepped democracy any challenge to it is, almost by definition, in support of democracy. No more lectures about undemocratic remainers, please.
I'm not lecturing anyone, just stating my opinion that failing to accept the outcome of a referendum and try to overturn it is undemocratic. Other aspects of the whole fiasco can also be undemocratic.

Edit: It wasn't 'sold' as an advisory referendum to the masses, it was 'sold' via a leaflet through every letterbox stating govt would implement the outcome of the vote.
 
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I remember several years ago you were suggesting that the vote to leave the EU meant a default hard Brexit:

imnb0bxoatks.png


I always considered this the insane option, especially given how close the result was. Do you still agree with that statement now, or have you changed your mind?
I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. Good of you to scrape like this which ignores lots of previous discussion and all of the context.

It seems scraping around for past posts to find something that may appear to fit the current agenda is a popular thing with some. I expect it from 2 people in particular but not from you. I live and learn.
 
I'm not lecturing anyone, just stating my opinion that failing to accept the outcome of a referendum and try to overturn it is undemocratic.

To overturn the result an undemocratic referendum where one side has cheated/lied is, err, undemocratic? Bloody hell!

And I am not even talking about the catastrophic outcome...
 
I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. Good of you to scrape like this which ignores lots of previous discussion and all of the context.

It seems scraping around for past posts to find something that may appear to fit the current agenda is a popular thing with some. I expect it from 2 people in particular but not from you. I live and learn.

Well, you were suggesting that people who voted leave understood that as meaning to leave the Single Market. This was something that stuck in my mind at the tome which is why I remember it clearly.

I wasn't doing this to snipe. It was a genuine question, and I honestly wondered whether you still thought the same now. People's views over Brexit will change over time, after all.
 
I'm not lecturing anyone, just stating my opinion that failing to accept the outcome of a referendum and try to overturn it is undemocratic. Other aspects of the whole fiasco can also be undemocratic.

Your argument is batshit crazy. If it becomes evident that an action was a catastrophic mistake, especially one driven by so many bad actors on the far-right of politics and the press, then reevaluating that position is the only logical one to take. I understand you were butt hurt by it, you make that evident by defending the indefensible even now. The fact so many of us called it correctly must be highly annoying, but you really need to move on! Come on, apply logic to it! What is the best way to undo the damage? Keep on digging ever deeper into the fail, or analyse the situation rationally and try to reverse out?

PS Yes, I’m trolling, but it needs doing.
 
I'm not lecturing anyone, just stating my opinion that failing to accept the outcome of a referendum and try to overturn it is undemocratic. Other aspects of the whole fiasco can also be undemocratic.

Seriously?

You do realise that you are saying a decision made in a democracy cannot be unmade?

Maybe consider that the truly democratic nature of the referendum is, was and always will be tainted by the known and undeniable corruption lies and other skulduggery which surrounded it.
 
Well, you were suggesting that people who voted leave understood that as meaning to leave the Single Market. This was something that stuck in my mind at the tome which is why I remember it clearly.

I wasn't doing this to snipe. It was a genuine question, and I honestly wondered whether you still thought the same now. People's views over Brexit will change over time, after all.
You quoted a post I made that was based on what was happening at the time and as part of an ongoing discussion.

What I heard in many interviews at the time indicated people knew things would be tough for a time, but it does not mean people wanted a hard brexit, though obviously, if it turned out negotiating with the EU became impossible a hard brexit would be the default. Why wouldn't it be? I did not think millions were voting for a hard brexit, I believe many thought a decent negotiated departure from EU membership would be possible. Suffice to say, both sides were crap. By the end I think people were ok with it, they were fed up of the bickering and nothing getting done.
 
Seriously?

You do realise that you are saying a decision made in a democracy cannot be unmade?

Maybe consider that the truly democratic nature of the referendum is, was and always will be tainted by the known and undeniable corruption lies and other skulduggery which surrounded it.
I'm not saying that. I said there is no problem campaigning to rejoin the EU. How does that mean I'm saying a decision can't be unmade? I supported Labour in the idea of a second referendum, had people done the right thing the decision could have been unmade and that would be fine by me.
 
Your argument is batshit crazy. If it becomes evident that an action was a catastrophic mistake, especially one driven by so many bad actors on the far-right of politics and the press, then reevaluating that position is only the logical one to take. I understand you were butt hurt by it, you make that evident by defending the indefensible even now. The fact so many of us called it correctly must be highly annoying, but you really need to move on! Come on, apply logic to it. What is the best way to undo the damage? Keep on digging ever deeper into the fail, or analyse the situation and try to reverse out?

PS Yes, I’m trolling, but it needs doing.
:rolleyes: I'm not in the slightest annoyed, or 'butt hurt' ( blimey, what a phrase ) just disappointed at your repeated comments that mean you think I'm a liar.

More than once I have clearly mentioned people trying to overturn the referendum result from day one, not years later when more has become evident.
 
More than once I have clearly mentioned people trying to overturn the referendum result from day one, not years later when more has become evident.

That is because we were bright enough to accurately predict what would happen. So many voices stating exactly what would happen, but we were branded ‘project fear’, shouted at by morons who “have had enough of experts” etc. We called it right. Every single negative prediction we made has come true in comparison to absolutely none of the ‘red bus lies’, ‘sunny Brexit uplands’ etc.

For most of us it feels just like Iraq. Total deja vu. Again we knew *exactly* what the result would be. We shouted it from the rooftops, marched in our millions, yet the dickheads did it anyway and we are still paying the price to this day.
 
You quoted a post I made that was based on what was happening at the time and as part of an ongoing discussion.

What I heard in many interviews at the time indicated people knew things would be tough for a time, but it does not mean people wanted a hard brexit, though obviously, if it turned out negotiating with the EU became impossible a hard brexit would be the default. Why wouldn't it be? I did not think millions were voting for a hard brexit, I believe many thought a decent negotiated departure from EU membership would be possible. Suffice to say, both sides were crap. By the end I think people were ok with it, they were fed up of the bickering and nothing getting done.

OK thanks Brian. That makes sense. Unfortunately with the lunatic fringe of the Tories steering the Brexit ship, a 'decent negotiated departure' from EU membership was never going to happen.
 
..but Labour thought they could make Brexit work. If only they had been in power but wait a minute- the corrupt bloater Johnson called a snap election and Labour seats collapsed with voters deserting Labour for hard Brexit Johnson. That’s why Starmer is busy courting the same audience. The rest of us can whistle.
 
:rolleyes: I'm not in the slightest annoyed, or 'butt hurt' ( blimey, what a phrase ) just disappointed at your repeated comments that mean you think I'm a liar.

More than once I have clearly mentioned people trying to overturn the referendum result from day one, not years later when more has become evident.

I think that people just want to overturn Brexit. The Referendum was a farce...

Edit: I should have written intelligent people.
 


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