gavreid
Pretty Words...
That makes a lot of sense.
Tone Poet Blue Notes
- Thread starter poco a poco
- Start date
That makes a lot of sense.
Graham H
pfm Member
paulfromcamden
Baffled
That would be my guess too. I suspect they sold a shedload more Jimmy Smith LPs than Herbie Nichols or Jutta Hipp.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I have also really been enjoying the TP of Stick UP. Really excellent playing by all and mastering and pressing great as usual. LJC seems to becoming quite a convert to the Tone Poet reissues. Interesting to see that Joe Harley also now reads his Tone Poet reviews and often adds feedback to the comments below (3 this time).
I’m still hoping that Dialogue, that was hinted at by Joe Harley, gets the Tone Poet treatment, but there are some unsubstantiated rumours of problems with the master tapes?
Graham H
pfm Member
Key info from JH for those still in doubt about TP series:
“I do have a Van Gelder OG btw. I always compare the test pressing when it comes in with the OG. I slept very well that evening. The “punch” that some refer to on the OG is a result of using limiting (“compression”). Rudy typically used 8:1 limiting on his cuts. Which means you might have to turn the Tone Poet version up a slight bit for a real comparison. Enjoy!”
Now £158.74, its lowest price since release.
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poco a poco
I'm Jim
Bargain for some. Great box set
Coming down, poco a poco, you could say. £150.80 today.
(My last bump for this, sorry!)
Graham H
pfm Member
That is £100 less than I paid. I'd urge anyone with even a glimmer of interest in Ornette to invest at that price. Great music, everything about the box set production is A1. You can even clearly see the snowflakes on the cover art of Golden Circle.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I paid just under £200 in the end so a bit less than Graham. I don’t really regret it as it is a great box and I have been playing Records from it since released. Sooner paid a bit more than have possibly missed out on this one.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I said to Mike and Gavin who commented on Picture of Heath & Bringing it Home to Me about pressing problems in the ‘What are you listening to’ thread that I would make further comment here so as to keep the TP thread on track.
POH I played with both my Cadenza Mono in my L-07D’s arm and side two this plus my Stereo Cadenza Bronze on the same turntable, but in my SME V arm. I listened very carefully throughout and especially to side two where not only Mike, but also now many on the SH TP Forum are complaining about problems (mainly skipping) on side two. I can just about make out in a strong light a very slight mark on track side two track two, but it was completely inaudible both before and after a clean and disappeared after one. No skipping, clicks, plops or signs of non fill with either cartridge on my copy that is also completely flat and the SQ on this is fabulous (see below). So Mike worth holding out for a a better pressing.
Gav, My copy had about a 1/4” v shaped mark/scratch at the end of track one side one that did not clean off. It looked quiet bad and I would probably rejected the LP if I saw it in a shop. Again though it was completely inaudible even though this is where the music fades out on this track so at a low level. Again my copy is perfectly flat so no problem there either. It also sounds great. If I was being hyper critical what I would say is that many recent TP’s no longer have that completely quiet, inky blackness in the dead wax that they used to have. I only hear it in the dead wax though with no affect at all when the music is playing even in quiet passages.
A bit more about these two, especially POH. I still can’t believe that mono recordings from 1956 sound so good. This is Audiophile demonstration quality stuff. The frequency range and dynamics are out standing. I can hear that some tracks are a little hot, but I’m not hearing any mike overload or mis-tracking. If anything would mis-track it would be Larance Marable’s drum kit. The recording of this especially during his solos is outstanding particularly on C.T.A. Wow it’s like I am sitting 3 feet in front of a real kit that is exploding in my room. I sounds very good with my Stereo cartridge, but if anything can so clearly show what a decent mono cartridge can do on a decent mono recording it is this one. It is in a different league like a whole system step up on all instruments. Carl Perkins Piano sounds wonderful as well, the engineer on this could certainly teach RVG plenty about how to get a live sounding piano.
Sorry to go on so much about the sound quality rather than the music, that is good with some nice soloing from Pepper, Urso and Perkins. I particularly like C.T.A and Minor-Yours. Well worth having musically, but a little unadventurous for my tastes on the whole. Musically I prefer Mitchell’s Bring It Home To Me. Really swinging Blues hard bop throughout with great solos from Mitchell and Junior Cook. I loved Mitchell’s subtle and nuanced trumpet playing on the Ballard - Portrait Of Jennie and Cooks infectious use of vibrato on some of his very ‘blusey’ tenor solos. Sound is great on this record as well. Live and room filling.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
I agree, I'm really enjoying both of them. I only bought the Blue Mitchell after getting the recent New Land - I need to look up more now.
I've not really done serious A-B comparisons but I've noticed this - often (but not always) on a RVG mastered record, the amount of deadwax is greater than one that's been mastered by someone else. This implies van Gelder applied more compression or limiting of the lower frequencies hence the tracks take up less real estate. I am not sure if this observation has any real implications for the overall sound though because mastering is an art and these sorts of physical attributes often tell you nothing about the sonics. I don't think that some compression (or other studio manipulation) is always the enemy because I often find the RVG pressings to be great.
John
Rack’em Up!
I read or heard recently that for most vinyl recordings they mono out the bass.
Nagraboy
Ausculta fili
RVG used quite a lot of compression and boosts in particular frequency bands in his mastering from what I’ve heard from Joe Harley. Even though we generally have much more wide bandwidth systems today, the original pressings still seem to be regarded as the best for some reason. Maybe the collectibility of the ‘original artefact’ plays into people’s perceptions here? I suppose on small speakers the OGs might sound more exciting as they may well play to the strengths and weaknesses of a small speaker than the more true to the tape TP reissues which surely show their best on a full frequency range, wide dynamic range speaker.
JH will of course claim that his records sound better than the originals and are more faithful to the mastertapes. I don't necessarily dispute that; the TPs do sound very good indeed and I buy some of my favorites even when I have earlier pressings already.
I do know that van Gelder was not a fan of the vinyl record and had to resort to manipulation to get them to sound good. He certainly felt that digital was an advance on analog.
Fact remains though I find a lot of the RVG pressings to be a great and exciting listen even on a high end wide bandwidth system.
I do know that van Gelder was not a fan of the vinyl record and had to resort to manipulation to get them to sound good. He certainly felt that digital was an advance on analog.
Fact remains though I find a lot of the RVG pressings to be a great and exciting listen even on a high end wide bandwidth system.
Tony L
Administrator
The originals have an amazing presence and power in the mid, they place the attention on the musical intent rather than pretty hi-fi concerns. The more I listen the more convinced I am that RVG was a ‘big picture’ thinker and captured stuff on tape in a way he could craft his idea for a finished product from it. I certainly view the original vinyl as the realisation, the master as an intermediate step in the creation process. As an example I am absolutely convinced he deliberately recorded bright so he could roll-off treble at the cut and therefore drop the tape noise floor (i.e. a totally manual Dolby). His recordings sound far too bright when cut flat, and absolutely spot on the way he cut them. Blue Notes are all about the mid-band and it has never sounded more impactful than via RVG-stamped vinyl to my ears. He just puts the brass and drums right in the room with you. I love it and I do not have a single audiophile cut that I’d not swap for a RVG-stamped US Blue Note in similar condition. I’m not even bothered about originality, I prize RVG-stamped Liberty pressings, dark blue labels etc.
PS I obviously use huge Lockwood monitors fitted with 15” Monitor Golds, so conceptually fairly similar to the Altec 604 Rudy used. That may swing my choice somewhat.To my ears on my system the TPs sound a bit over-cooked with a bit of a ‘smile’ EQ (i.e. boosted top and bottom) and the originals exactly right/balanced. I may prefer the Tone Poets on a smaller less weighty speaker. I don’t know as I only have one vinyl system set up.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I’m raising my musical opinion of Picture of Heath a couple of notches as after listening again today as I think I did it a bit of a disservice yesterday. I’m liking quite a bit more today particularly Chet Baker’s contribution and how he and Pepper work in partnership. I think due to the danger of looking for the technical imperfections in the pressing rather than listening to the music fully.
Tomas Conrad makes some good points in his enclosed liner notes: “Picture of Heath is “vibrant”. It lacks all the other complications. It comes from another world that is rapidly fading into the shadows. It is pure, lucid, melodic, swinging, honest straight-ahead jazz....”