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Naim Nac 102 Nap 180 continuing saga.

C

Chris Gallagher

pfm Member
Back in Feb I posted that the above Naim gear made my KEF R 750s sound harsh and I couldn't have them turned up past 9 0clock, especially on CD. (CD 5i)

I have had the 180 serviced by class A and it still sounds exactly the same!

So, a year on I'm wondering whether to

1) try adding a power source to see if that will help ie a flatcap for the 102.
2) Get the 102 serviced
3) Get different speakers, although I am reticent to do that as I bought them new and they cost me about £1850 about 4 years ago.
4) Something else.

I am very new to naim so please forgive my ignorance if I have got something wrong here.

Chris
 
I suspect it’s a case of your source not being up to the rest of the system. The CD5i is fine but the 102/180 is from a higher class and that and the KEFs are very likely showing it up.

A better CD source is really the way to go here. It would also be worth putting a Napsc on the 102, which can be found cheaply and makes it sound much more natural. Forget the Flatcap; after the Napsc you should look at a Hicap. But the source should come first.
 
I would just try a different amplifier if you can get your hands on one to borrow. It could just be that you don’t like the older Naim olive sound, which can sound as you describe to some.

I would hesitate spending more money until you have isolated the cause.
 
Naim 102/180 are very revealing and will be no good with a mediocre source, the better and more revealing amp, you risk worse result.
As others say focus on source, your CD5i is a match to a Nait 5i amp - not higher.
A Napsc + Hicap with a matching source will make a world of difference in your setup.

I'm sorry to say. don't look in the Naim camp for a CD-player, even there are much better than your entrylevel 5i, most of them are no longer supported.
If you don't intend to buy a turntable then I'd look at a Rega CD-player, of course there are others.
 
As above I am afraid.

Your speakers would appreciate a bit more than your amplification can give and the amplification is a good deal better than your source. As it stands, their being 'revealing' is probably not being a good thing.

However, I am guessing without hearing. Why not borrow a good CD player (or streamer) from a mate, plug it in and see if the sound becomes significantly better - more detail and grunt but no harshness?

You could also try a less vigorous amp, much though I rate Naim in general and your 102/180 in particular.

If neither of those help, I'd suspect an actual fault somewhere.

As a really long shot, you don't have very odd or short speaker cables do you?
 
Agree with those above

The 5i is not that great
The 5(italic) no better
The 5Si ....not to bad

But the pre and amp combo deserves the best source you can throw at it
 
Chris Gallagher said:
1) try adding a power source to see if that will help ie a flatcap for the 102.
2) Get the 102 serviced
3) Get different speakers, although I am reticent to do that as I bought them new and they cost me about £1850 about 4 years ago.
4) Something else.
Click to expand...
I'd go option 4.

Borrow/buy something completely different from Naim that you've had in the back of your mind. Find out if you actually prefer Naim/KEF before you throw more money at it.

Who knows, maybe you'll end up falling in love with a big Japanese integrated with tone controls (Yamaha, Luxman, Denon)! Maybe your speakers are wrong for you!
 
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Thanks guys that really helpful advice. I should have said I also have a rega P6 and a bluesound node 2i. The streamer sounds the best of all of them as it kind of rounds off the edge but its still not great.
 
Chris Gallagher said:
Thanks guys that really helpful advice. I should have said I also have a rega P6 and a bluesound node 2i. The streamer sounds the best of all of them as it kind of rounds off the edge but its still not great.
Click to expand...

That doesn't sound right. Depending on your cartridge I suppose your Rega should be performing really well in that company. Perhaps check all of the connections and cables, swap them around, etc?

I've done the odd silly thing :)
 
NickofWimbledon said:
As above I am afraid.

Your speakers would appreciate a bit more than your amplification can give and the amplification is a good deal better than your source. As it stands, their being 'revealing' is probably not being a good thing.

However, I am guessing without hearing. Why not borrow a good CD player (or streamer) from a mate, plug it in and see if the sound becomes significantly better - more detail and grunt but no harshness?

You could also try a less vigorous amp, much though I rate Naim in general and your 102/180 in particular.

If neither of those help, I'd suspect an actual fault somewhere.

As a really long shot, you don't have very odd or short speaker cables do you?
Click to expand...

Nope the speaker cables are equal.
 
Hungry Halibut said:
I suspect it’s a case of your source not being up to the rest of the system. The CD5i is fine but the 102/180 is from a higher class and that and the KEFs are very likely showing it up.

A better CD source is really the way to go here. It would also be worth putting a Napsc on the 102, which can be found cheaply and makes it sound much more natural. Forget the Flatcap; after the Napsc you should look at a Hicap. But the source should come first.
Click to expand...
Could I pair an olive Hicap with these or should it be the same era/logo style?
 
Chris Gallagher said:
Could I pair an olive Hicap with these or should it be the same era/logo style?
Click to expand...

Would be fine if it's in good nick.

Couple more things to check out.

Grounding. Take the Rega out of the system. Make any difference?
Perhaps your speakers need to be recited, ie. moved? Sometimes upstream changes mean you need to revisit speaker positioning.
How long ago was a 180 down. Does it need to be run in.
Open the 102, make sure the boards are firmly seated, etc?
Do you have the optional power supply for the 102, can't remember what it was called. Would do that before a hicap.
 
For not a lot you can get a topping D90SE, which will eat pretty much any available CD player alive (and pretty much any other DAC too) all for under a grand. You'll even get about £500 back from your CD5

You could then go up and up the Naim preamp range and find that the preamps really aren't at all transparent until you get to the 82 with upgraded PSU's. Alternatively you could get your 102 superlinked, but you will also need to shell out for a Teddy supercap or an upgraded Naim one to get the benefit. In practice though you'll just leave the preamp out of the system and use the topping's volume control.

All of this will come through perfectly clearly with the 180 and your Kefs
 
I have a 102, 180, and node 2i so I can offer a few thoughts.

I don’t know the speakers, but 9 o’clock can be very loud with that combo.

what cables are you using?

I like the node a lot, but I am also surprised that it tops the P6. I’m wondering about the compatibility of he phono stage and cartridge. You might consider the RSL or NJ phono cards.

I like the 102/180 combination, but it isn’t the most relaxing listen. When I am in the right frame of mind, there’s a certain energy or excitement that is hard to beat, but it can also be a bit too much of a good thing - though some might say the Kans and Saras contribute to that…. Again, I don’t know the KEFs but if they have a tendency to harshness, it might be a bad combo.

I have also tried the 102 with a hi cap and supercap and found that they increase that energy (or relentlessness depending on your mood and/or point of view).

That said, and I think this was alluded to above, I consider the NAPSC mandatory. For me, it took an edge off the 102/180. If I were listening to it every day, I would use the 102, NAPSC, and 180 without any other power supplies and with RSL phono cards. As it happens, I went back in time to CB.
 
I used to run a 180 (albeit with a 72 into Linn Keilidh's) and it had to go due to exactly the harshness you describe. It really got unlistenable to. I have heard this comment quite a few times over the years. I would start there rather than changing all sorts to find out you are still in the same boat!
 
Try and get a loan of a Rega Brio or buy one pre- loved at low risk to try in your system. It will give you an indication if Naim is for you. Also IMHO Rega amps now have the engaging sound quality that used to be the Naim domain, especially the CB stuff.

I’ve always found Olive Naim to be the most forward / harsh sounding compared to the latest black or early Chrome Bumper stuff. Some of the earlier Naim CB stuff like the Nap160 were really quite sweet sounding.

Many years ago I had a Rega Planet CD player which was brilliant and then I was foolishly persuaded to “upgrade” to a Naim CD3 which in the end was a massive downgrade. Hated that CD player!
 
tenpercenter said:
Try and get a loan of a Rega Brio or buy one pre- loved at low risk to try in your system. It will give you an indication if Naim is for you.
Click to expand...
I suggested something similar in post #7. It didn’t fly.

Sticking with a brand even when you’re not satisfied to me is like eating Chinese food all the time even though you don’t really like it. But rather than try something different like Thai or Greek, you go for more expensive Chinese food.
 
to the OP, as some above have noted, the Olive stuff, especially the 102/180 combo, won't ever be a relaxing listen, and the addition of the SNAPS ain't make wonders either. that pairing is, IME as well, has the most grinding sound Naim gear can produce :(. also, as some have already advised, the ol' CB amps give a much pleasant sonic experience. thus, if you decide stick with Naim, best is to say good-bye to the 102/180 and invest in a CB set
 
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