Audiophile Network Switches for Streaming ... really ?

[Colin L]

The subjectivist camp doesn't seem to get that the objectivists would really like to identify some shortcoming of digital playback that needs improving, as it would justify designing some nice profitable equipment. Its getting hard to justify dCS prices over a Topping these days

I’ve got a friend in KL with dCS gear you could listen to. It might change your mind. Topping is just the latest flavour of the month version of “good for what it costs”. There will be another along soon for ASR to tout and generate traffic.

 

[davidsrsb]

I think that you may agree that the improvement between decent and the best is shrinking

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I think that you may agree that the improvement between decent and the best is shrinking

I think the point, though, is that the technical side will argue that there shouldn't be a gap, at all.

 

[miktec]

I think the point, though, is that the technical side will argue that there shouldn't be a gap, at all.

I doubt any would really argue that per-se .... just whether the SQ gap between a £1000 streamer and a £29,000 one is really as extreme as the price would suggest.
(or even a £100 RPi set up for that matter.... )

.... particularly if it then turns out you have to shell out another few thousand pounds for a magic box to correct stuff that your £29,000 box apparently can't deal with
(personally, I would be asking for my money back - pronto!!!)

 

[mansr]

Mystical noise?

Noise that is generated by IMPs down to the audio band that can't be measured on a 3GHz SA? Don't those things have scale settings, BW? They did the last time I used one.

@Fourlegs at what freqs and levels are these IMPs at please?

An RF spectrum analyser is pretty much useless for audio applications.

 

[Fourlegs]

I doubt any would really argue that per-se .... just whether the SQ gap between a £1000 streamer and a £30,000 one is really as extreme as the price would suggest.
(or even a £100 RPi set up for that matter.... )

I have owned streamers that cost £300, £600, £1,500, £5,500, £9,000 and £17,500 at todays prices and I have heard a £25,000 streamer in my system when brought by a friend. So I have been able to directly compare many of them together, side by side.To my ears the jumps in sound quality were biggest sub £10k and then the diminishing returns kick in which is not to say that the improvements above that price were negligible because they were not, just that they were milder.

 

[TheFlash]

I doubt any would really argue that per-se .... just whether the SQ gap between a £1000 streamer and a £29,000 one is really as extreme as the price would suggest.
(or even a £100 RPi set up for that matter.... )

.... particularly if it then turns out you have to shell out another £2,800 for a magic box to correct stuff that your £29,000 box apparently can't deal with

It can deal with it. A magic box helps it deal with it better.

 

[TheFlash]

Just as one would say if it was a electrocardiogram...damn useful at visualising information graphs are, and so I this case too as it says that there is nothing audible

An electrocardiogram measures the right thing under the right circumstances.
That graph does not.

The 6dB hump is a red herring IMHO.

 

[TheFlash]

The subjectivist camp doesn't seem to get that the objectivists would really like to identify some shortcoming of digital playback that needs improving, as it would justify designing some nice profitable equipment. Its getting hard to justify dCS prices over a Topping these days

Most of the objectivists I come across wouldn't dream of designing and launching a "nice profitable product" or any product at all. Most seem to pride themselves on assembling a system of moderately priced components which a certain website has measured some aspects of and anointed. Of course, they wouldn't just need to identify a shortcoming, they'd need to design, develop, test and market a solution; the first few of these are a pain and the last is anathema to most of the objectivists I've encountered. Profit? Marketing? Selling? Dirty words!

 

[davidsrsb]

I have developed both analog and digital audio and video products in my career. 40 years ago these had many shortcomings.

 

[DonQuixote99]

Of course, they wouldn't just need to identify a shortcoming, they'd need to design, develop, test and market a solution; the first few of these are a pain and the last is anathema to most of the objectivists I've encountered. Profit? Marketing? Selling? Dirty words!

You know, one could make that argument. Exploiter and parasite are dirty words too. I doubt that most 'objectivists' are there, even disregarding the Randist irony, but there certainly are marketing efforts that make the argument.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I doubt any would really argue that per-se .... just whether the SQ gap between a £1000 streamer and a £29,000 one is really as extreme as the price would suggest.
(or even a £100 RPi set up for that matter.... )

I get that, and I don't think anybody is seriously arguing that a £29k streamer is 29x the performance of a £1k streamer. The law of diminishing returns is biting pretty hard by then, I reckon.

However, you seem to be acknowledging that there may yet be performance gains with the costly gear, and if so my view is that it's up to the purchaser to decide where they sit on the cost/value continuum, for them. And let's not lose sight of the fact that for some of the esoteric stuff (and I'm thinking here of Wadax, which makes the £29k stuff look like budget gear) some huge amounts of R&D time and effort have gone in, and there's not a mass-market audience for the product so the unit cost will always be high as those costs, plus a margin, and operating costs, have to be covered across a very low volume production.

 

[miktec]

However, you seem to be acknowledging that there may yet be performance gains with the costly gear, and if so my view is that it's up to the purchaser to decide where they sit on the cost/value continuum, for them. And let's not lose sight of the fact that for some of the esoteric stuff (and I'm thinking here of Wadax, which makes the £29k stuff look like budget gear) some huge amounts of R&D time and effort have gone in, and there's not a mass-market audience for the product so the unit cost will always be high as those costs, plus a margin, and operating costs, have to be covered across a very low volume production.

Yes - all known arguments to the fore and acknowledged .... BUT to be then told that the ethernet input of said device is so poorly implemented that it can't handle a measly bit of electrical noise (allegedly) creeping in and causing detrimental gubbins ..... to the extent that you need to shell out a few £k extra to get another box to do the job that your uber-super researched and developed wonder box can't deal with????

That last bit I do not buy .... not in any way, shape or form.
Smacks to me of a simple money-spinning gambit I'm afraid - and one at the level of the Volkswagen fiasco.

But yeh - it ain't my dosh and if others want to spaff it against the wall ....

 

[Fourlegs]

Yes - all known arguments to the fore and acknowledged .... BUT to be then told that the ethernet input of said device is so poorly implemented that it can't handle a measly bit of electrical noise (allegedly) creeping in and causing detrimental gubbins ..... to the extent that you need to shell out a few £k extra to get another box to do the job that your uber-super researched and developed wonder box can't deal with????

That last bit I do not buy .... not in any way, shape or form.
Smacks to me of a simple money-spinning gambit I'm afraid - and one at the level of the Volkswagen fiasco.

But yeh - it ain't my dosh and if others want to spaff it against the wall ....

But please do say what you think is different in the various streamers that would mean they sound different when they are connected to the same DAC in the same system. Indeed in the case of at least some of the different sounding streamers the ONLY difference is their power supplies - those ones I am thinking of have identical processing boards (ie the Innuos Zen and Zenith). Please do say why you think this happens

 

[miktec]

Please do say why you think this happens

Please tell me why on earth I should even want to?

I have absolutely no interest in listening to a variety of boxes with a variety of different PSUs and a variety of filter boxes and a variety of doodahs in a never ending road to nowhere in the hope of convincing myself that I have made the 'right' purchase(s)

I prefer to spend my time listening to music, not equipment foibles, fancies or fantasies ...... I only joined this thread in the first place because I had actually tried the 'magic-box' trick and found that it did nothing for me whatsoever. Upon which I was questioned about the length of this, the placement of that, etc etc etc ......

 

[Bridger]

We are glad to have your assurances with regard to your system but we only have your word for it. A few years ago I received similar assurances from another person about his system together with his view of what mattered with digital front ends and associated connected network based on his knowledge and expertise from a lifetime of working with commercial ethernet networks. Then I heard his system (at a wam show as it happens) and let’s just say he had an inflated expectation bias regarding his assessment of his own system and a failure to realise that what he had dealt with during his professional life was not the only thing that mattered when it came to maximising the sound quality of audio systems.

Thank you for your assessment of this anonymous system, and of the psychoacoustic failings of its owner, but to quote your own pearls of wisdom, we only have your word for it. You see, that cuts both ways, doesn't it Fourlegs?

Who are the "we" that you have taken it upon yourself to be the spokesperson for anyway?

 

[Zombie]

Another one like the MQA Dimitry, but he had two legs

 

[hc25036]

I've tried looking the other way, going for a walk and sitting on my hands, but I can't keep quiet any more. There are arguments - including getting narky and/or personal - about noise getting into and affecting (or not) the sound of superbly manufactured equipment and how that might or might not be happening. And yet, and yet, and yet the elephant in the room, which has been scientifically examined and proven time and time again over decades and which cannot be excluded from any of the assessments is forgotten or misrepresented as something which is in the control of the assessor.

I get that this is fun - until tempers get frayed - but there is ultimately never going to never going to be an end to the argument other than the wise words of @miktec in posts #1093 and 1095 above. Just accept that differences will be heard or not heard and that is no way of knowing/proving the cause or whether it is even real. Just enjoy some music.

 

[chiily]

@Fourlegs can you tell us please what frequencies these IMPs are at and a sweep, Freq against level of said IMPs and noise. Ta.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Yes - all known arguments to the fore and acknowledged .... BUT to be then told that the ethernet input of said device is so poorly implemented that it can't handle a measly bit of electrical noise (allegedly) creeping in and causing detrimental gubbins ..... to the extent that you need to shell out a few £k extra to get another box to do the job that your uber-super researched and developed wonder box can't deal with????

That last bit I do not buy .... not in any way, shape or form.
Smacks to me of a simple money-spinning gambit I'm afraid - and one at the level of the Volkswagen fiasco.

But yeh - it ain't my dosh and if others want to spaff it against the wall ....

OK, fair comment. But in the case of the Wadax I mentioned, the designer has gone to extraordinary lengths to make it immune, as you say, and in doing so, appears to have found that audible detriments exist which don't show up in the regular measurements, but which can be dealt with by obsessive attention to power supply and isolation. I'd hazard a guess than in that case, the switch might indeed be redundant (but note, Wadax use USB not ethernet due to the network traffic and noise). So the question is not so much 'why are these expensive items still susceptible?' but more 'how much will it cost to reduce the susceptibility still further, and can we make a case for doing it?'

Let's say the device itself reduces the effect of noise by 90%. If the noise reaching the device is already attenuated by 90%, then even if the device can't do the same degree of further attenuation, so you won't get to 99%, you've still in all likelihood reduced noise by >90%, hence an improvement on base performance.