advertisement


Why is Tidal so loud?

JoeJoe

JoeJoe

pfm Member
I find the output volume of BBC Sounds to be perfect for a good range of attenuation into my dac integrated amp. But Tidal/Spotify (and others) have such a high output that the range of volume control is severely narrow and it’s not that easy to find the perfect volume without delicate micro-adjustment. This is even with ‘sound-normalisation’ engaged within the Tidal app.

I know that when they originally launched CD they went for a high output voltage over traditional analogue (2.5v versus 1.5v, I think?!). So, is this a digital legacy issue and also, does anyone know why the BBC Sounds app has got the output volume just right, is it a broadcast standard or something? I’d say the volume output from Tidal is close to near double that of BBC Sounds….it’s a genuine pain as the sound quality is so good on Tidal.
 
I dont have this issue,what are you outputting from and is it the same thing as what is outputting bbc sounds?
 
Might it have something to do with normalisation? Spotify normalises everything to a standard loudness, which may be too loud for your taste, by default but this can be disabled. Maybe it's the same for Tidal.
 
Probably why people generally tell us that Tidal is better than Spotify. Higher output can create a perception of “better” SQ. Some of us don’t buy this bit rate tosh, based on listening to both on a revealing system.
 
garyi said:
I dont have this issue,what are you outputting from and is it the same thing as what is outputting bbc sounds?
Click to expand...

Their ‘line’ output values are different…..Streaming from a Chromecast into an integrated amplifier…I find if I have a good listening volume on BBC Sounds app and then switch to Tidal, the volume from Tidal is way higher and I’m having to turn the volume down on the integrated significantly.

(this does not only apply just to Chromecast but streaming into the amp through an iPhone or into the amp through LG TV)
 
Sorry, I have never seen this so cannot be much help. I have tidal/local music/web based output going on through various devices, I don't detect a terrific difference other than what could be put down to different mastering on albums. One thing to consider is that bbc sounds will be massively compressed, flattening both the highs and the lows, which is easy on the ear for sure.
 
If it's a digital bit-perfect stream, it should sound the same volume. If it's compressed in some way it will likely sound louder.
 
JoeJoe said:
I find the output volume of BBC Sounds to be perfect for a good range of attenuation into my dac integrated amp. But Tidal/Spotify (and others) have such a high output that the range of volume control is severely narrow and it’s not that easy to find the perfect volume without delicate micro-adjustment. This is even with ‘sound-normalisation’ engaged within the Tidal app.
Click to expand...
What does 'sound normalisation' do? If it's a form of compression (which it may be) then, as others have said, this could be the problem. Have you tried switching it off on the app?
 
Seems likely, then, that this involves compression of some form. I'd be interested to learn if the problem is the same with this turned off. It must be a likely culprit, for the same reason that Classic FM sounds louder than Radio 3.

And using the volume control on a compressed version will have the effect of making everything sound too loud, rather than expanding the perceived dynamic range.
 
Classic Fm, LBC….all the Global Radio stations output at high volumes too…compared to BBC Sounds. It’s occurring to me that it might have been more helpful if I titled this thread, “why is BBC Sounds app output so quiet”?!?……lol.
I appreciate everyone’s input…
 
nugsy said:
BBC and other UK broadcaster are normalising audio loudness to EBU R128. Looking at Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBU_R_128) it appears that Tidal, Spotify etc are as well. This ensures that the subjective loudness remains constant regardless of how compressed the audio is.
Click to expand...

…you’ve put me on the right track here, looking into this it seems BBC Sounds app outputs at -18 lufs under the EBU R128 volume normalisation standard.
Tidal at -14 and Spotify at -13. Explaining the volume difference I’m experiencing between streaming apps.
 
JoeJoe said:
…you’ve put me on the right track here, looking into this it seems BBC Sounds app outputs at -18 lufs under the EBU R128 volume normalisation standard. ...
Click to expand...
I think this is in the right direction, but according to my understanding (which may be wrong), you have to take account of differences between those who commission audio content (BBC) and those who relay content commissioned by others (Qobuz, Tidal, ...).

The bottom line is that yes, Qobuz, Tidal, ... unadjusted are rather louder than BBC Sounds. To get comparable loudness, you need streaming apps for Qobuz, Tidal, ... that can (i) make loudness adjustments at your end; and (ii) do so using the same reference level as BBC Sounds, which may not be their default level.

[TL;DR]This may only be interesting to me:
  1. BBC Radio commissions audio content. The BBC radio commissioning technical specification calls for loudness of -23 LUFS and that's what's used according to this relevant BBC Academy podcast. I agree it's a very comfortable level.
  2. Qobuz, Tidal etc. do not commission audio content. AIUI they relay what they get from the record labels and do not change it [1]. From my reading they analyse the files they get based on a reference/target level they decide on and provide metadata with the stream to allow your player or your OS to do volume normalization to that reference/target level (maybe adjustable) if you enable it.
AIUI the record labels do not commission content to any specific loudness level. AIUI, their content is of a typically higher loudness level than the BBC sounds commissioning standard. So, yes, the streaming services will sound louder unless you have a control on your player to adjust the loudness of their streams (and to the BBC Sounds level). AIUI Tidal and Roon will do that but neither of my Qobuz apps will (yet [1]).

[1] See the comments from Qobuz here which read: "I don't understand why you said we have implemented R128 volume. We only analysed all the tracks in the catalogue to retrieve the gain and peak information, which is necessary to set up the volume leveling. We does not implement any function yet." and "We will add [the] feature to enable volume leveling with this information but the customer are free to activate or not. And this is only information extract[ed] from the audio, we never change the audio file."
[/TL;DR]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top