Gas and Electricity Prices

[PhilofCas]

Just been told by Octopus that the first instalment of £400 aid is being applied to our next DD payment, here’s the transcript of the email (my actual payment redacted):

“
Hello phillip,

Just a quick reminder: we'll collect your monthly Direct Debit payment of £**.** on 3rd October.

It can take up to four working days for a Direct Debit payment to clear and appear on your online account balance.

This is £67.00 less per property than usual, to pass on the discount of the Energy Bill Support Scheme.From October, you'll receive a monthly discount on your account of £66 (rising to £67 from December to March) from the Government.

We're required to reduce your monthly payments as part of the scheme - but should you prefer to use the scheme to build up a buffer, simply adjust your payment back up in the next 48 hours.

Making changes to your payment
If you want to cancel or change this month's payment, you can change your payment here. Please let us know as soon as you can .

Love and power,
The Octopus Energy team”

 

[garyi]

I have no idea what octupus os doing with ours. Firstly I swapped out a powerful server, this has had an effect to the tune of at least 30 quid a month.

But they are saying its dropping 100 quid a month and we currently have 650 credit. Obviously I am happy about the situation, I need to look at year on year stats (The app will do this if you have a digital meter)

 

[Richard Lines]

Yes. At present I don't know one way or the other if our roof would be OK. Alas, our 'garage' roof is shadowed by the house next door which is 2-story and to our South. So for Solar PV I'd need to find someone who is competent and honest. Hence I'm taking that slowly. A related issue is possibly having a 'house battery' but I have no idea if that would make sense in the absence of SolarPV as a way to 'time shift' buying electric energy to a cheaper time at night, etc. Practical experience on that from others would be welcome as, again, I guess it isn't cheap to get.

Are present 'house battery' systems bidirectional? i.e. can also be used in part to 'sell back' to the grid at times of high demand and low generation? I know these are planned for the future as part of a 'smart grid' but don't know what can be done yet in the UK.

Answering the second part first. One of the principal criticisms (there are several in truth) of the PW2 is the inability of the owner of said battery system to do what they want with it. You can go on Tesla Price Plans but the import/ export is controlled by those lovely people at Tesla and you have zero control.

There are people with appropriate computer skills who have workarounds but it seems that Tesla get wise to these and make the necessary alterations to the software by all accounts.

I honestly don't know which battery systems/ inverter-chargers do allow bi-directional activity but they are out there.

I can't find the source now but if you do decide to go the battery route the Pylontech's came out very well in an Australian based test - as good as the PW2.

Such as Octopus do have tariffs like Agile Outgoing which can make exporting power worthwhile but the downside would be you might also end up paying a fair amount for the electricity to charge said batteries in the first place.

In winter whatever Solar PV you have isn't going to do much to charge any batteries. In my case taking a 4kW system I generate 3.1MWhr per annum. Last December the system only made 18kWh in the whole month so, as is pretty obvious, the bulk of the output occurs during the summer. (I've pro rata'd this data as I have a 12kWh system).

There are TOU tariffs developing now (I'm not including traditional tariffs like Economy 7/ 10). In the case of Octopus Go you need to have an EV I don't know how strict others might be. There will need to be some number crunching going on when the new rates come out and, of course, nobody knows where we'll be when the current support schemes end.

As to whether Solar PV and or batteries work for individual properties will depend on a number of factors and almost every case will be different. The maths will change almost certainly.

It is too much to hope that a UK government will go the way that the EC appear to be heading and decouple electricity pricing. It is outrageous that a wind farm operator gets paid the same as a gas burning power producer. Profits do need to be fixed or capped for each generation type. The operators of said plants might not be happy but tough, nationalise them if they don't like it.

Regards

Richard

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Answering the second part first. One of the principal criticisms (there are several in truth) of the PW2 is the inability of the owner of said battery system to do what they want with it. You can go on Tesla Price Plans but the import/ export is controlled by those lovely people at Tesla and you have zero control.

There are people with appropriate computer skills who have workarounds but it seems that Tesla get wise to these and make the necessary alterations to the software by all accounts.

Regards

Richard

So although we may buy a house battery *someone else* decides how it will be used?! That's crazy!

FWIW I have doubts and will continue to haver wrt SolarPV. I expect the efficiency to rise and the cost per kWh / lumen to fall as time passes. However I'm also aware that THE ONE WHO ALWAYS TALKS IN UPPER CASE is nearer to me now than a few decades ago. So would have to offset that over the amount of time I might use it. 8-]

 

[Richard Lines]

So although we may buy a house battery *someone else* decides how it will be used?! That's crazy!

FWIW I have doubts and will continue to haver wrt SolarPV. I expect the efficiency to rise and the cost per kWh / lumen to fall as time passes. However I'm also aware that THE ONE WHO ALWAYS TALKS IN UPPER CASE is nearer to me now than a few decades ago. So would have to offset that over the amount of time I might use it. 8-]

Kate has just sent me a hand held phone video of a pice on the BBC Scotland news this lunchtime about the current surge in interest in things solar. I'm sorry but for an awful lot of people the economics probably still don't add up and if they do have 5k or more to spare there are probably more cost effective things to be doing i.e. insulate, insulate, insulate

The panels you install will keep on going though even if you don't happen to be about to benefit directly

Regards

Richard

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Kate has just sent me a hand held phone video of a pice on the BBC Scotland news this lunchtime about the current surge in interest in things solar. I'm sorry but for an awful lot of people the economics probably still don't add up and if they do have 5k or more to spare there are probably more cost effective things to be doing i.e. insulate, insulate, insulate

The panels you install will keep on going though even if you don't happen to be about to benefit directly

Regards

Richard

The first chimes with what I suspected wrt 'home' SolarPV. Makes more sense for 'farms' of SolarPV. Potentiallys + wind, etc, as an add-on bonus. Make some use of the anti-correlation between wind and sunshine levels.

The value when I'm dead isn't something I worry much about, except for the possibility of something helping my better half.

 

[gingermrkettle]

The first chimes with what I suspected wrt 'home' SolarPV. Makes more sense for 'farms' of SolarPV. Potentiallys + wind, etc, as an add-on bonus. Make some use of the anti-correlation between wind and sunshine levels.

Except not necessarily. Solar works really well for us at a domestic level, wind efficiency is an exponential function of size so is very much better at industrial scales.

 

[dan m]

. Firstly I swapped out a powerful server, this has had an effect to the tune of at least 30 quid a month.

Garyi,
I thought you were a chef who relaxes making wood fired pizzas in your back garden. Why on earth do you need a server that uses more electricity than your average household?

 

[Richard Lines]

Except not necessarily. Solar works really well for us at a domestic level, wind efficiency is an exponential function of size so is very much better at industrial scales.

The bottom line is that a community solar and community storage set-up would be better for everybody as it would be more efficient overall and more cost effective.

If all the money 'we' have sunk in to domestic Solar PV and storage had been invested in one big project with the benefits genuinely shared it would have been money better spent with a much better return........ it's a fact - problem is in our dearly beloved capitalist society always seems to ensure that doesn't work.

Regards

Richard

 

[garyi]

Garyi,
I thought you were a chef who relaxes making wood fired pizzas in your back garden. Why on earth do you need a server that uses more electricity than your average household?

I sir am a geek. I love technology, I have too much of it, and what I discard my kids pick up so we have three powerful PCs in this house, using 300w each under load. lol.

Server for roon, homebridge, plex, etc etc. I had an unnecessary powerful one (32 cores, 96 gigs ram etc) that is now sadly decommissioned.

 

[gingermrkettle]

as it would be more efficient overall and more cost effective

I don't think it would. Solar output scales linearly with size, having multiple smaller installations would probably make the distribution easier as you effectively reduce total grid power requirements for the HV network.

And on storage, the round trip efficiency for our Powerwall is well into the 90s% so I would be surprised if any community sized project could significantly beat it. Domestic storage takes out the need for peak supply capacity which makes the whole grid run better.

 

[dan m]

I sir am a geek. …Server for roon, homebridge, plex, etc etc. I had an unnecessary powerful one (32 cores, 96 gigs ram etc) that is now sadly decommissioned.

Maybe just keep it and not turn the heating on this winter?

 

[garyi]

Maybe just keep it and not turn the heating on this winter?

Well like every server should be (Audiophiles I am looking at you) it lives way away from habitation.

 

[Richard Lines]

I don't think it would. Solar output scales linearly with size, having multiple smaller installations would probably make the distribution easier as you effectively reduce total grid power requirements for the HV network.

And on storage, the round trip efficiency for our Powerwall is well into the 90s% so I would be surprised if any community sized project could significantly beat it. Domestic storage takes out the need for peak supply capacity which makes the whole grid run better.

I'm not suggesting massive distant set-ups. What would be more cost effective/ efficient. 40 houses down a street each with their own individually fitted 13kWh PW2 or one single central bank of 500kWh battery bank? The latter obviously even if Mr. Musk would make less out of it.

Regards

Richard

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The bottom line is that a community solar and community storage set-up would be better for everybody as it would be more efficient overall and more cost effective.

If all the money 'we' have sunk in to domestic Solar PV and storage had been invested in one big project with the benefits genuinely shared it would have been money better spent with a much better return........ it's a fact - problem is in our dearly beloved capitalist society always seems to ensure that doesn't work.

Regards

Richard

Yes. You'd think this would be a sensible idea for local groups possibly initiated by Councils. Alas, Councils in general are strapped of cash, and often hagridden by lobbies like those that infect housebuilding.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I sir am a geek. I love technology, I have too much of it, and what I discard my kids pick up so we have three powerful PCs in this house, using 300w each under load. lol.

Server for roon, homebridge, plex, etc etc. I had an unnecessary powerful one (32 cores, 96 gigs ram etc) that is now sadly decommissioned.

Well, it does also subtract from the explicit house heating system.

Even with my class-B amps and their audio systems I've noticed an effect on room temperature. And that has been without decent loft/underfloor insulation! ... now, all being well, added today.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I don't think it would. Solar output scales linearly with size, having multiple smaller installations would probably make the distribution easier as you effectively reduce total grid power requirements for the HV network.

And on storage, the round trip efficiency for our Powerwall is well into the 90s% so I would be surprised if any community sized project could significantly beat it. Domestic storage takes out the need for peak supply capacity which makes the whole grid run better.

A community based system could put panels on individual house roofs as well as in larger arrays, and interlink the lot with distrubuted storage in a smart way. I've seen projects like this described in IEEE Spectrum mag already. Just needs and organising body that runs 'not for profit' to do it. Once running people who refuse to join simply lose out on the benefits. But the individual 'entry cost' could be low by being subsidiesed via the running operation. "We install for low/no cost, and you get less of the energy for a while as the payback. Gradually ramps up to full membership level."

Its the sort of thing *intelligent* governments would do... Ah! B00ger! I've just spotted the fly in the ointment. :-/

 

[gingermrkettle]

The latter obviously

Not necessarily obviously. The infrastructure for transmission of 200kW is very different to internal 5kW, so you can't just appeal to economies of scale.

described in IEEE Spectrum mag

I am always a bit wary of this sort of thing. Someone from the IMechE (MrsKettle is a member) claimed a month ago in an official presentation that all thermal power generation in the UK was around 20% thermally efficient which is rubbish for gas.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Someone from the IMechE (MrsKettle is a member) claimed a month ago in an official presentation that all thermal power generation in the UK was around 20% thermally efficient which is rubbish for gas.

It's also b*llocks WRT coal-fired.

 

[Bjork67]

If you have a smart reader do you or would you need to send them a picture of meters? Surely they already know the readings of the meters don't they