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Linn LP12s – Fire away!

I’ve been fortunate to hear more than most and Turntables to me are just like people ; some warm, cold, uninterested, eager to please, fascinating, charming, closed, quiet, loud, boisterous. For example cold would be I’ve found lightweight plastic types, warm and eager to please would be early LP12’s, boisterous are all Roksan Xerxes and I found the Raven GT charming and informative.

My first one was falling to bits and the settings were all over the place but even so I could hear a signature which was enjoyable in a wrong kind of way. There wasn’t much coming through, details I knew were present on recordings were missing or faint and it had a big fat single note bass.

The lp12 does need set up properly which can be tricky so first off I’d say judge it once set up by someone who understands the workings. You can’t just assume a suspended deck with a belt will perform to its potential like a direct drive turntable.

I went from 1970’s iteration all the way up to Klimax level and I believe during that period I did find the sweet spot. Ultimately though, even at Klimax level I’d heard other turntables I connected with more in enjoyment (what it’s all about after all). For me Akurate level with a Kore, Mose Hercules/Lingo and say an Audio Origami pu7 was the sweet spot. I did install Keel & Radikal which ended up nothing like the original LP12 I’d heard and more like master tape and therefore like most other high level turntables (shame). At Klimax for me, it lost its soul. Sure it still had that analogue golden hue, but don’t all turntables have that to a certain extent as soon as the diamond meets vinyl.

I’ve had dozens of turntables now … most I’ve given 60 seconds before realising I don’t like the sound, most are behind me for good. Right now Im all for direct drives. Why DD’s? Well for me I adore measured speed stability, no surprise accuracy always leads to better music and instruments sounding in pitch terms how they are supposed to sound. More importantly I can set up a DD turntable easily, repeatedly and concisely by myself. I won’t go back to belt driven turntables because DD’s to me sound more propulsive and energetic … as if the turntable is eager to please.

Finally on the LP12 lovers report it as more musical with what they call PRAT. I’m not going to critique their vague terms, I understand what they mean. My Klimax LP12 made Johnny Cash’ voice more realistic than I’ve ever heard and as such I connected with the emotion he was feeling as he sang. I owned a Raven GT and AMG Giro, they couldn’t recreate that emotion but they could play numerous different layers of symphonic orchestra all at once in every detail and be understood.

I once got pilloried for saying the Lp12 was the BigMac of turntables but I stick by that analogy. The LP12 is so popular with so many because it appeals to the tastes of how so many like to hear their music in so far as ingredients all together are undoubtedly coloured but magical.
 
Except when the other half doesn’t like the colour

The problem is that tastes and fashions change. Years ago I really fancied a piano black LP12 but I've gone off the idea. Look around, everything that isn't moving is grey! Grey carpet, grey fences, grey walls. Wasn't like that ten years ago and I'm sure it won't be like that in another ten, mainly because it's horrible.

Only thing that doesn't date is wood. Nice wood finish on an LP12 is the way to go, you'll never get sick of it.
 
The problem is that tastes and fashions change. Years ago I really fancied a piano black LP12 but I've gone off the idea. Look around, everything that isn't moving is grey! Grey carpet, grey fences, grey walls. Wasn't like that ten years ago and I'm sure it won't be like that in another ten, mainly because it's horrible.

Only thing that doesn't date is wood. Nice wood finish on an LP12 is the way to go, you'll never get sick of it.
Totally agree!
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Yeah. I’m wrestling with a potential facelift to the finish of the cherry fluted plinth our late 80s LP12.

I’m currently leaning towards going for a blonded (bleached) cherry finish, a little like what we see on French country furniture.

When the time comes, I’d like to post some before and afters… but posting photos on this great forum seems to be impossible.

Sad, because a forum with no pics is… a bit sad.
 
Yeah. I’m wrestling with a potential facelift to the finish of the cherry fluted plinth our late 80s LP12.

I’m currently leaning towards going for a blonded (bleached) cherry finish, a little like what we see on French country furniture.

When the time comes, I’d like to post some before and afters… but posting photos on this great forum seems to be impossible.

Sad, because a forum with no pics is… a bit sad.

Not impossible, but unusually difficult perhaps?
 
Years ago I bought a Chris Harban plinth and very nice I thought at the time. It was quite unique wood but over time it has darkened and while it still looks smart it no longer looks unique.

Today as much as I liked it then I find myself wanting something different given the finishes you can have these days. How one changes their view of something from the past.

Don't think such a thing will happen though. A bit of unnecessary cost.
 
Years ago I bought a Chris Harban plinth and very nice I thought at the time. It was quite unique wood but over time it has darkened and while it still looks smart it no longer looks unique.

Today as much as I liked it then I find myself wanting something different given the finishes you can have these days. How one changes their view of something from the past.

Don't think such a thing will happen though. A bit of unnecessary cost.
What finish did you get? There were some pretty funky wood finishes being offered.
 
What finish did you get? There were some pretty funky wood finishes being offered.
It's been years and I cant remember the name. I guess if I look back on an old hard drive I could find out (I think!). I had several pics of choice. Just not sure which drive could be on :eek:.
Took some pics last night of my tt during re-assembly perhaps I could post some.
 
“The music it makes”. No more needs to be said.

That is what separates the music lovers … we should choose what we just bloody well ENJOY the most!
The problem here is that Linn lovers want to hear their turntable making music. The rest of the world wants to hear the artists making the music. Linn or any other vinyl turntable is quite poor at conveying the original artistic creation to listeners.
 
The problem here is that Linn lovers want to hear their turntable making music. The rest of the world wants to hear the artists making the music. Linn or any other vinyl turntable is quite poor at conveying the original artistic creation to listeners.

That's my experience too, but once a turntable came along for me that relieved the obvious & fundamental faults of the LP12 it's now simply impossible for me to go back to it again as I can't stop hearing those faults that impose upon every track from flutes to Zeppelin going forward, it's always there, a colored bloatedness -actually a kind of distortion- although many seem to find this distortion pleasing like a warm glass of milk as opposed to clean water, but that sound will begin to grain on you once your exposed to an intune, speed accurate & uncolored deck. ...No doubt, the LP12 design foundation has had it's time -and I have personally enjoyed several over the past 35 years mainly because there was nothing was more in tune- and they do look very nice but this 50+ year old design is now obviously dated no matter how many upgrades you throw at it.

Also, after reading thru this whole thread it seems no one is really purchasing a new LP12 -or any new TT, it more overall posts about convenience because one already owns an LP12 & continued modifying/upgrading/tuning tips & positive group reinforcement back slapping as everyone here is very smart and it would be simply inconceivable that they should own something suboptimal, so that's kind of telling too in it's own way..
 
I like the aged look better. Nothing to distain ;-) All it needs is flutes!

Having just seen that early pic for what is a very long time having just found them on a hosting site I must say how surprised I am that the plinth has changed & darkened by such an extent in the some 12 years since purchase.

Decided against flutes as it replaced a original fluted plinth which was nothing exciting. Wish though after I had purchased asked for the LP12 Logo to be inscribed into the front of the plinth.
 
Hah, yea. Its amalgamating tape. It's perfectly fine. No hospital treatment needed (maybe I do) :D Was just playing around back then with arm damping. None to sure why, probably because of a lot of fiddling and fettling back then and that lyra cartridge was quite fussy.

It's a Ekos Mk2 or should say a Mk1 upgraded by Linn to Mk2 so has/had a Mk1 counterweight. Now replaced by a sKale simply because the old weight looked a little worn and lighter in colour.
 
The problem here is that Linn lovers want to hear their turntable making music. The rest of the world wants to hear the artists making the music. Linn or any other vinyl turntable is quite poor at conveying the original artistic creation to listeners.

Hi @Octavian - it's a view.

Hopefully we agree that all hi-fi has compromises, and that obviously includes TTs from 1970s and 1980s.

Some here make clear that they like the sound of an LP12 without modern bearing, power supply or sub-chassis upgrades, and dislike the detailed, neutral and un-coloured sound of a Klimax-style LP12 today. Others (me included) thought listening through the warm glow was a price worth paying given what the LP12 did really well compared to other TTs that also cost several hundred pounds back then. This is a fairly broad church, if you see what I mean.

The LP versus other sources discussion is a much wider one. Most of us remember being told in the 1980s that CD offered 'perfect sound forever' and that our disagreeing was entirely attributable to our being a bit deaf, actually wanting to hear less of the music or deluding ourselves about what we were hearing. Many arguments even had graphs to prove their point. Revisiting a CD player from that era is interesting - the compromises in SQ are certainly not the same as from any TT (least of all an LP12 of that era), but the differences between the CD sound and musical perfection were to many far more damaging to musical enjoyment or recreating the original experience.

Top quality digital reproduction has been transformed since then of course, and so has the performance of turntables, including an LP12. All my sources are a lot closer to the master tape in sound than any were 20+ years ago - if my LP12 had not changed, I would now have a different make of TT or none.

Like @tpetsch, I couldn't now live with the sound of my old LP12. Perhaps unlike him, I can live with and indeed hugely enjoy music through today's non-basic LP12 - I have heard plenty of other good TTs and other sources in recent years without my LP12 ever annoying so that swapping to something else appealed much.

I suspect that that is true of many other happy LP12 owners today, but of course those who disagree that the changes make music more enjoyable can simply keep what they are still enjoying and resist 'upgrades'.

A friend and I were listening for some hours yesterday - he has spent much of the last 35 years in recording studios and has not had a use for a turntable for about 20 years. He is consistently picky about mike-positioning, compression and lack of neutrality or full range grip (no loose bass or sibilant treble please) - not an uncritical listener. On about a third of the music we heard, a quick check showed that we both preferred the LP to the digital options, despite the occasional click or crackle. This seems hard to square with your view that TTs are poor at conveying the original artistic creation to listeners.

We each have things that we find more or less annoying. If you find the compromises and imperfections from all TTs particularly annoying or distracting hearing from the music itself, it makes plenty of sense for you to avoid them. I think that a lot of us here simply score the pros and cons of actual music reproduction and enjoyment by various means a bit differently from how you are doing it. Does that seem fair?
 
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The problem here is that Linn lovers want to hear their turntable making music. The rest of the world wants to hear the artists making the music. Linn or any other vinyl turntable is quite poor at conveying the original artistic creation to listeners.
I just want to enjoy listening to music at home. So far I can do that better with vinyl and a 1980s LP12. If I hear another deck or digital streamer that's more enjoyable then I'll go that way instead.
 
Great post Nick.

I suspect many that prefer early LP12 are using other classic components of the age, typically Naim amps and Linn speakers or similar. Nothing wrong with this. I do too. It is a great fun classic system.

Then along comes digital and ... ugh it sounds horrible. It gets better until you hear something that doesn't "do it all wrong" (for me double speed DAT then a Pink Triangle DaCapo DAC and the Trichord Genesis CDP were the first digital stuff I "liked" and could live with). At least some of this is down to the system balance. What worked well with a less than neutral LP12 of the era worked against a the "perfect forever" digital of the day. Never mind the loudness wars causing a large imbalance between the level out of your turntable and CDP ...

Where do you go from here though? To enjoy all sources you need an even handed system, yet you have Naim amps and SBLs or Briks :p there are clearly different paths different folk have taken, all are valid:

Some feel you need to stick with the early LP12 system and only play digital begrudingly if at all and/or carefully select digital that suites the system as best you can.
Some feel you need to update the LP12 towards the top Linn spec or beyond (by which I mean e.g. Khan, Stilleto, places Linn have yet to go) to better match the best digital can offer.
Some feel the LP12 has to go!
Some feel the amps and speakers have to go to!

For me the LP12 is not broken, it doesn't need fixing, it lacked neutrality, it gained that Cirkus onwards imho. It still has its issues, and its enveloping enjoyable qualities. I am able to live with the former to enjoy the later. I appreciate some are not and for them there are other paths.

As long as the path you choose suits you and you enjoy the music, and/or the fiddling about with the deck, then it is all good as far as I am concern. YMMV.
 


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