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Naim Stageline questions

Yes, here we go, Peter Swain the master Superline whisperer on Kandid. Second hand admittedly. It is another vote for reducing the gain a bit?
The Kandid is a nice cartridge with a lot of definition and detail but it just been a tad too bright for me so far which makes it difficult to live with longer term. I’m using a slightly negative VTA and highest tracking weight possible and that helped a bit but still not enough.

It’s made by Scan Tech who also make Lyra cartridges and they can also have a reputation for being a tad too bright. We are not talking Denon 304 or OC9 type bright but it’s enough to be a bit of an issue.

Despite the loss in detail/definition it would bring I might eventually end up ditching the Kandid and just use a retipped or rebuilt Linn Troika with the Naim K stage. A well known good combination without problems.

I’ve also got a Dynavector P75 mk1 and mk3 right now and those are hopeless for the Kandid on any setting (even the lowest 30 ohms). Worse in the PE mode (even brighter). The P75 is a bright and forward phono stage IMO. Not to my liking. Might be good with a full and duller sounding cartridge such as a Denon 103 or variants. I find it even a bit bright with a Linn Troika or Karma.

I know many people like the P75 but it’s not for me. The Stageline has a somewhat similarly tight and snappy kind of sound but isn’t as bright sounding.
 
There will be folks with Superline that will have tried every loading under the sun, if you can track down their fumblings on the green forum, or go ask them, it might give you a good starting point? Certainly when I moved to DV20X2L I found some advice from Peter Swain on Superline loading. Might be worth a look.

Yes a traditional S loading 6n8 in parallel with the 1nF would allow you to get a decent idea of whether that will do anything for you. Sure it will be 7n8 ish but that is close enough to test.
Thanks for this. I’ll have a look at the other forum and see if I can find what works for a Kandid and Naim MC phono stage.

I haven’t altered the cap value yet but went down to 43 ohms loading resistor on the Stageline today (47 ohms in parallel with stock K) and didn’t really find any improvement so I’ll try the extra cap in parallel with the existing 1nF. I bought some caps from Cricklewood electronics the other day. 6.8nF and 2.2 nF in a similar blue cap to the Naim stock 6.8 nF cap. So I’ll try the 6.8nF to go for max difference over 1 nF.

I also bought a couple of 1nF polyesters but I think they are unlikely to work well with the Kandid (like the stock ones). If I end up with a Troika instead I might put the polyesters in to replace the stock 1nF caps.
 
Yes, here we go, Peter Swain the master Superline whisperer on Kandid. Second hand admittedly. It is another vote for reducing the gain a bit?
So Peter Swain recommend 576 ohms and 470 pF? The resistor seems pretty high. Very different value to what is used in the Linn Urika for the Kandid (42 ohms)
I could try 470pF I guess but I’d have to take out the stock capacitor first and I don’t think I’ve got any caps to hand that low value. Might have a Wima FKP1 but they are pretty big caps.

The recommended capacitance loading range for the Kandid is 100-1000pF. So maybe going higher to 6800 and above wouldn’t be suitable and not the right direction.

I’m not totally clued up on how capacitance loading affects MC cartridges. I thought the effect was very weak compared to an MM cart. Certainly with a MM cart if you go too high on the capacitance loading the sound gets too bright and can be peaky. Is there a somewhat similar effect with MC carts at a lower level or does it not work that way for MCs?
 
The capacitance for MC on Naim at least is just about not letting too much RF through and it has a slight roll off effect. It isn't like on MM. I don't think you can compare Linn and Naim stages for settings, they are completely different beasts I suspect. All the Naim stages are more or less the same until you get to Superline then they went all out on using as much of a Supercap as possible :D

Peter Swain is recommending something using his ears in his system for a Superline and Kandid (well it is a second hand report, but I see no reason to doubt it!). I would use that as a starting point for you in your system with your ears, nothing more.
 
  • The capacitance for MC on Naim at least is just about not letting too much RF through and it has a slight roll off effect. It isn't like on MM. I don't think you can compare Linn and Naim stages for settings, they are completely different beasts I suspect. All the Naim stages are more or less the same until you get to Superline then they went all out on using as much of a Supercap as possible :D

    Peter Swain is recommending something using his ears in his system for a Superline and Kandid (well it is a second hand report, but I see no reason to doubt it!). I would use that as a starting point for you in your system with your ears, nothing more.

    Thanks for finding the post. Well I already tried close to what he recommends- 560 ohms and 1000pf as that’s the K setting, and I didn’t like it. Makes the brightness and thinness of the Kandid worse. Maybe reducing the capacitance might help but it doesn’t sound like a big differencez Can only try it.

    I appreciate Linn and Naim phono stages are different but 42 ohms vs 576 ohms is a big difference. Something a bit odd going on there.

    The phono stage I’ve got I like the most with the Kandid so far is the £60 CA640p in standard MC mode. 100 ohms loading. It has a fuller and more laid back sound than the Dynavector and Stageline that balances out some of the issues I have with the Kandid being too bright. £4K cartridge with £60 phono stage does seem a bit odd though.

    I’ve got a Yaqin MS12 tube MM stage that sound full and dark compared to neutral. It sounds v similar to the EAR 834P although it’s not quite a good sounding.!I’m getting some S&B TX103 MC Stepups soon and with those the Yaqin might do a good job of taming the brightness of the Kandid. I can put in some Mullard 12AU7s to help make it darker too.
 
OK so Peter's Superline and system and ears does not immediately translate to your Stageline and system and ears, it was only a shot in the dark, apologies for the wild goose chase.
Try reducing the resistance a bit, not the whole hog 100R ish you tried, try somewhere in the middle, a binary search. At the very least go down to the S 470R?
Separately try increasing the capacitance, that might help. At least go up to the S 6n8?
 
OK so Peter's Superline and system and ears does not immediately translate to your Stageline and system and ears, it was only a shot in the dark, apologies for the wild goose chase.
Try reducing the resistance a bit, not the whole hog 100R ish you tried, try somewhere in the middle, a binary search. At the very least go down to the S 470R?
Separately try increasing the capacitance, that might help. At least go up to the S 6n8?
Thanks, I wasn’t complaining! Appreciate the advice. Was just trying to figure things out.

Yes I was thinking maybe 220, 330 or 470 ohms Is worth trying with higher capacitance. Are you not suggesting lower capacitance as that might make my matters worse?

Its possible that for me,that the Stageline and P75 are a bit too lightweight sounding for the Kandid. Ok with other carts like the old Supex Linns (although the P75 is still a bit bright).

Maybe something like the Linn Linto or a Rega phono stage might be a better bet. I’m looking for a fuller and darker phono stage (than the Naim or Dyna) to balance things out a bit. Will try the step up and tube amps first though.
 
For a low output MC, the impedance is made up of two parts, resistive (a few Ohms) and inductive. The inductance varies a lot depending on the type - some have air core coils, some have a permeable core, so the inductance varies over a wide range from a few uH to a few mH or so. To actually change the frequency response, big capacitors can be needed, even up to a uF!!!!! The load resistance mostly interacts with the cartridge inductance; even a 100Ohm load hardly changes the level from a 5 ohms source.

To complicate matters, most MCs have a monstrous ultrasonic resonance, which causes a rising response if undamped.

See Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading (hagtech.com) has a discussion, formulas and some inline calculators.
 
Thanks PD, if only cartridge manufacturers always listed the nominal inductance!

Linn say this (Load Resistance 50–200, Load Capacitance 100–1000 pF) but it seems in an earlier data sheet that these folk have cached they said, at some point this (Recommended load: 70Ω ~ 1kΩ (determine optimum by listening)) though neither tell us the inductance. None the wiser other than to say lower resistance will roll it off earlier, and you can go as low as 50R and be within the Linn spec, but if 100 ish did nothing much for you, I suspect this combo will not work for you regardless. I would not have described Naim MC stages as bright, more that they merge stuff into a cohesive sound, which inevitably leaves them a little lacking in detail, not especially accurate, but not bright. I have not heard a Stageline but, meh, it is 32 phono cards on a single PCB in a box, same thing really, though implementation is important I would not expect it to change it quite that much.
 
For a low output MC, the impedance is made up of two parts, resistive (a few Ohms) and inductive. The inductance varies a lot depending on the type - some have air core coils, some have a permeable core, so the inductance varies over a wide range from a few uH to a few mH or so. To actually change the frequency response, big capacitors can be needed, even up to a uF!!!!! The load resistance mostly interacts with the cartridge inductance; even a 100Ohm load hardly changes the level from a 5 ohms source.

To complicate matters, most MCs have a monstrous ultrasonic resonance, which causes a rising response if undamped.

See Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading (hagtech.com) has a discussion, formulas and some inline calculators.
For a low output MC, the impedance is made up of two parts, resistive (a few Ohms) and inductive. The inductance varies a lot depending on the type - some have air core coils, some have a permeable core, so the inductance varies over a wide range from a few uH to a few mH or so. To actually change the frequency response, big capacitors can be needed, even up to a uF!!!!! The load resistance mostly interacts with the cartridge inductance; even a 100Ohm load hardly changes the level from a 5 ohms source.

To complicate matters, most MCs have a monstrous ultrasonic resonance, which causes a rising response if undamped.

See Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading (hagtech.com) has a discussion, formulas and some inline calculators.
thanks for the info. I’ll have a look at the link!
 
Thanks PD, if only cartridge manufacturers always listed the nominal inductance!

Linn say this (Load Resistance 50–200, Load Capacitance 100–1000 pF) but it seems in an earlier data sheet that these folk have cached they said, at some point this (Recommended load: 70Ω ~ 1kΩ (determine optimum by listening)) though neither tell us the inductance. None the wiser other than to say lower resistance will roll it off earlier, and you can go as low as 50R and be within the Linn spec, but if 100 ish did nothing much for you, I suspect this combo will not work for you regardless. I would not have described Naim MC stages as bright, more that they merge stuff into a cohesive sound, which inevitably leaves them a little lacking in detail, not especially accurate, but not bright. I have not heard a Stageline but, meh, it is 32 phono cards on a single PCB in a box, same thing really, though implementation is important I would not expect it to change it quite that much.
Yes maybe they changed the recommended load as it was a bit too bright when higher than 200 ohms.

I know that with active MC Stages the loading doesn’t make much difference but it does make some slight difference. Subtle though for sure but it is there.
With a passive MC step up transformer and MM stage loading can usually make bigger differences.

Yes I probably describe three Naim phono stage incorrectly. Not bright but I would not say they do not have a full and somewhat richer sound like some phono stages do. For my taste that is what is probably needed more for the Kandid. The Linn stages might suit better.
The new Ekstatik is probably better balanced but £££.

Wil try the 7.8 nF cap value soon and report back how I get on.
 
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Just following up on this thread. I didn’t try new loading values (either loading resistor or loading capacitance) on the stageline board yet, but I was thinking that a less invasive way of doing it would be to use Audioquest brass RCA splitters on the RCA phono inputs on the stageline where the tonearm cable RCA plugs in.

For each channel, I would plug in the audioquest RCA splitter and connect the tonearm RCA to one of the splitter sockets and then put an extra RCA plug on the spare parallel input, that has a resistor soldered in parallel across the plug (that will then be in parallel with the internal loading resistor).

This should lower the loading resistor value to less than the K spec of 560 ohm depending on what value the extra resistor is.

I think the same is possible with the capacitance value to raise it above 1000 pF too,- just use an extra parallel cap on that external RCA socket too (which will then be in parallel to the 1000 pF cap) to raise the capacitance.

Just double checking I’m understanding this correctly and it’s a viable option to alter than loading in a less invasive way than altering the Naim board? Any advice would be much appreciated.

I appreciate it’s still not quick to change values with soldering

I guess I could instead install SIL sockets on the RCA plugs to enable faster resistor changes.

Also appreciate what has been said before about extra connections not being ideal.
 
I used T splitters and loading plugs on my Stageline but I removed the onboard loading resistors. Made it very easy to change the loading. I left the caps alone as I wasn’t convinced they had that much effect on mc carts.
 
I used T splitters and loading plugs on my Stageline but I removed the onboard loading resistors. Made it very easy to change the loading. I left the caps alone as I wasn’t convinced they had that much effect on mc carts.
Thanks for confirming. Yes that’s my plan but I will probably leave the internal loading resistor alone and use more in parallel on the outside.

The Audioquest hard brass RCA splitters are one piece and not so cheap (£15 each) but I’ve used them before and they are a lot better than any other splitters I’ve tried.

Agree on the capacitance loading. Must have a very small effect although the S does have a different capacitance loading to the K (6800 pF vs 1000pF) so it might have a small difference for some cartridges.
 
I used T splitters and loading plugs on my Stageline but I removed the onboard loading resistors. Made it very easy to change the loading. I left the caps alone as I wasn’t convinced they had that much effect on mc carts.
Why did you remove the loading resistor too? Were you concerned using two in parallel might affect the sound or did you want to use higher loading values? (That’s not possible if you leave the internal resistor in place and use an extra parallel resistor, - you can only go lower in value)
 
Why did you remove the loading resistor too? Were you concerned using two in parallel might affect the sound or did you want to use higher loading values? (That’s not possible if you leave the internal resistor in place and use an extra parallel resistor, - you can only go lower in value)

Yes but you have to use big values to make a difference in overall resistance, try an online parallel resister calculator and you will see why
Better to remove the loading resistor and wire an external switch to sample actual values
I did something similar on my Paradise phono

Paradise switch 2 by Alan Towell, on Flickr

Alan
 
Yes but you have to use big values to make a difference in overall resistance, try an online parallel resister calculator and you will see why
Better to remove the loading resistor and wire an external switch to sample actual values
I did something similar on my Paradise phono

Paradise switch 2 by Alan Towell, on Flickr

Alan

The rotary switch is very nice. Then you can make changes on the fly and compare. Bit difficult to do that with a Staegline though unless you start drilling holes etc (which I’m not so good at!)
When you answered yes, which part of my question to the other poster was that in reply to?

I’m not quite sure what you mean about having to use big values to make an overall difference for two parallel resistors. If you had a Staegline with 560 ohms internal loading and you used a 120 ohms resistor externally, you’d get near to 100 ohm parallel resistance (98.8 ohms). Having said that it does seem easier to remove the loading resistor for what I’m trying anyway, and if I install SIL sockets on my external RCA plug then whatever resistor I try is the actual loading, - it’s easier than having to calculate in parallel with 560 ohms all the time.

That paradise looks really good. So many parts. I read that it sounds v decent. Would love to try one of those!
 
Colin, I removed the on board loading resistors so only one resistor is required for each channel and no need to calculate the value required. Also what would you do if you wanted say a 1K load? I actually prefer loading plugs to switching. All my diy builds use loading plugs.
 
Colin, leaving in the 560 You have to go 2K ish to go to 430 so its a Faf on with a calc, just remove it and use a switch or loading plug to have a range of single values that are common with modern carts
I used the following values 68R, 100r, 150r, 220r, 330R, 470R Dale RN65 resistors because I had most of these in.
Alan
 


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