advertisement


Scottish Politics II

Good to hear you are experiencing some positives. Of course, ‘free’ medication, bus passes, tuition fees, small business rates, school meals etc etc are not free at all. Somebody pays. I’d hazard a guess it’s not the residents of your small island, or indeed country (in their entirety). Socialism is expensive, so who pays when Scotland is independent, the EU? Which means meeting a set of criteria and observing a set of rules.

I sometimes wonder what the reaction would be if there was a referendum for an independent London / Home Counties. It would certainly have a very high GDP and be able to afford some incredible public services. Why not?

I thought that was Brexit?
 
Precisely. Hard border for 60% of Scotland's physical trade (compared to 12% with the EU). What could possibly go wrong there?

Besides if the SNP continue to run the show - having shown even worse fiscal incontinence than England's hapless Tories - a failed state is sure to follow fairly quickly.
Wish us luck.
 
No serious engagement with the topic from the nationalists. Answers to legitimate questions based on logic not emotion and dreams is what is needed. I suspect it's impossible to justify without revealing a small amount of junk.
 
I think you are a bit too sanguine about the lack of a religious divide in Scotland. Most people like myself from west certainly haven't experienced it it that way. And I can't see the EU signing up to subsidise feckless levels of SNP spending when much of its Barnet-funded largesse is not available even in some wealthy EU countries. But I agree with your point that Scotland faces a long hard road post-independence and the SNP should be honest about that. They aren't, which makes them not a serious political party - Tartan clown shoes to match Boris's plain ones.
Sectarianism is an issue you’ve raised more than once here. What’s your understanding of the religious sectarian position on independence and voting SNP?
 
Sectarianism is an issue you’ve raised more than once here. What’s your understanding of the religious sectarian position on independence and voting SNP?
Obviously it's reasonable to expect you reply to some of his points on Scottish indpendence before he can be expected to respond to your latest diversion.

Is this the start of 'Gassor v2', I wonder...
 
It took a long time for Ireland to get to its present standard, and for a long time we in the north (heavily subsidised, still, by Westminster) regarded the southerners as the poor relations. No longer.

Until the last 10 years or so, wasn't a lot of that rising standard courtesy of big EU investments?
 
Until the last 10 years or so, wasn't a lot of that rising standard courtesy of big EU investments?
It’s what the EU does. Boris calls it levelling up but they actually do it. ‘Little Eire’ (as one of our former members called them) is flying now as an exporter and English speaking bridge into the EU. It shows what small flexible countries can do given the opportunity.
 
I don’t know the numbers but my impression is that London and the Home Counties voted remain?

Yes that is the total upside down nature of Brexit. The levelling up counties voted Brexit. Go figure the logic. What do you think of Mick Lynch? Is he right about the Tories? He is calling them liars in public and there are no writs flying.
 
Sectarianism is an issue you’ve raised more than once here. What’s your understanding of the religious sectarian position on independence and voting SNP?

I think the SNP have been happy to trade on a quite deliberately-fostered confusion between violent and bigoted Loyalism, Ulster Unionism (let's not forget - and I'm writing as a Scots Catholic of Irish extraction - that non-violent Ulster Unionism is a perfectly legitimate political viewpoint worthy of honest consideration, notwithstanding its long-standing reluctance to give ground when Catholics demanded equal rights under the law), and Scottish anti-secessionism, which they have been happy to conflate for political reasons. Hence the word 'Unionist' being applied quite wrongly in Scotland when in fact Scottish anti-secessionism has a quite different rationale than tribally-based Unionism/Loyalism in Ulster.

Of course the Bucky-drinking, knuckle-dragging Ibrox contingent have made this easier than it should have been, while the more idiotic 'Unionists' among English Tories only make things worse by assuming that anti-secessionist Scots like me are happy with Union flags everywhere, completly oblivious to the toxicity of this in some quarters, particularly in the West of Scotland. Hence now, in the unthiking see-saw way of these things, many cradle Catholics have signed up for the SNP purely to set themselves against the sort of people pictured rioting earlier in the thread. This is very toxic to genuine, constructive political discourse (far from in the interests of Scots Catholics more generally) and has added a very unwelcome injection of Ulster tribalism into Scottish politics - something, as I say, that the SNP have been happy to exploit and that the Tories have failed completely to understand.

For me the arguments against secession are mostly economic but also identitarian - I reject the SNP's attempts to divide the peoples of the UK, pretending moral superiority or difference in values which don't exist (per the annual Social Attitudes Survey). I see no reason why my full identity as a Scot (or sixth generation Scots-Irish, if you must - the Irish famine was a long time ago) can't co-exist quite happily with a British identity dating back to the union of the crowns in 1603 when England and Scotland came under a common monarch, and 1707 when this arrangement was formalised politically. Since my recent retirement (I was 20 years a daily newspaper journalist and 20 years in management consultancy) I'm actually working on a PhD in 17th century Scottish music so I have some familiarity with turbulent 17th century history across Scotland, England and Ireland. I really value the diversity of the UK's constituent nations, but I also see myself as European, a product of western Christendom with an orientation towards our common Roman/Christian heritage (I do read Latin and speak French and German) - unlike some I don't feel I need an EU passport for that, my European connections being far more deep and ancient than anything Brussels can offer.

The economic arguments of course I have outlined above. I don't want my aged mother or my siblings' pensions to be put at risk through SNP economic dishonesty, nor do I want Scotland to turn into a failed state, which is where it would seem to be heading anyway thanks to the SNP's serial incompetence and general disinterest in actually running the country as well as it could be run, as opposed to bribing indyref voters with freebies from a Barnett dividend that would disappear on independence day.
 
I think the SNP have been happy to trade on a quite deliberately-fostered confusion between violent and bigoted Loyalism, Ulster Unionism (let's not forget - and I'm writing as a Scots Catholic of Irish extraction - that non-violent Ulster Unionism is a perfectly legitimate political viewpoint worthy of honest consideration, notwithstanding its long-standing reluctance to give ground when Catholics demanded equal rights under the law), and Scottish anti-secessionism, which they have been happy to conflate for political reasons. Hence the word 'Unionist' being applied quite wrongly in Scotland when in fact Scottish anti-secessionism has a quite different rationale than tribally-based Unionism/Loyalism in Ulster.

Of course the Bucky-drinking, knuckle-dragging Ibrox contingent have made this easier than it should have been, while the more idiotic 'Unionists' among English Tories only make things worse by assuming that anti-secessionist Scots like me are happy with Union flags everywhere, completly oblivious to the toxicity of this in some quarters, particularly in the West of Scotland. Hence now, in the unthiking see-saw way of these things, many cradle Catholics have signed up for the SNP purely to set themselves against the sort of people pictured rioting earlier in the thread. This is very toxic to genuine, constructive political discourse (far from in the interests of Scots Catholics more generally) and has added a very unwelcome injection of Ulster tribalism into Scottish politics - something, as I say, that the SNP have been happy to exploit and that the Tories have failed completely to understand.

For me the arguments against secession are mostly economic but also identitarian - I reject the SNP's attempts to divide the peoples of the UK, pretending moral superiority or difference in values which don't exist (per the annual Social Attitudes Survey). I see no reason why my full identity as a Scot (or sixth generation Scots-Irish, if you must - the Irish famine was a long time ago) can't co-exist quite happily with a British identity dating back to the union of the crowns in 1603 when England and Scotland came under a common monarch, and 1703 when this arrangement was formalised politically. Since my recent retirement (I was 20 years a daily newspaper journalist and 20 years in management consultancy) I'm actually working on a PhD in 17th century Scottish music so I have some familiarity with turbulent 17th century history across Scotland, England and Ireland. I really value the diversity of the UK's constituent nations, but I also see myself as European, a product of western Christendom with an orientation towards our common Roman/Christian heritage (I do read Latin and speak French and German) - unlike some I don't feel I need an EU passport for that, my European connections being far more deep and ancient than anything Brussels can offer.

The economic arguments of course I have outlined above. I don't want my aged mother or my siblings' pensions to be put at risk through SNP economic dishonesty, nor do I want Scotland to turn into a failed state, which is where it would seem to be heading anyway thanks to the SNP's serial incompetence and general disinterest in actually running the country as well as it could be run, as opposed to bribing indyref voters with freebies from a Barnett dividend that would disappear on independence day.
You seem very keen to proffer unsolicited autobiography. My question also wasn’t about the economics of independence, it was about the religious sectarian alignment with pro and anti-SNP/ independence. The SNP has a huge voter base across the whole cultural spectrum yet the sharp end of the anti-SNP/independence movement appears to be collocated with the Orange Order, one particular football club and those with far right political views. Why is that? I also notice in your polemic you are claiming the SNP are exploiting the sectarian divide- in what ways are they doing that?
 
Until the last 10 years or so, wasn't a lot of that rising standard courtesy of big EU investments?

No it started in the mid eighties but really picked up in the nineties. Since the early 2000's with exception of the crash it has all been a big upward trajectory.
Don't forget we never had the oil that Scotland had and as pointed out up to the mid sixties operated an isolationist policy with big protections. Cars had to be assembled here for example.

I would have thought there would be a trough if Scotland joined or some sort of shock but it is a fairly well developed country with none of the impediments experienced by Ireland. They may just catch up fairly quickly. The EU might just take them in quickly just to despite England. I think it is all moot though as it is very much into the future before anything will happen. I think best to concentrate on the here and now. Brexit, NI, Rail strikes. Tory corruption, Tory scandals, Party gate etc etc

I noticed on the the link to the original thread someone posted that Labour victories under Blair did not require Scotland. Not sure why so much weight is placed on the labour vote in Scotland. They have to win the English vote to get elected.
 
You seem very keen to proffer unsolicited autobiography. My question also wasn’t about the economics of independence, it was about the religious sectarian alignment with pro and anti-SNP/ independence. The SNP has a huge voter base across the whole cultural spectrum yet the sharp end of the anti-SNP/independence movement appears to be collocated with the Orange Order, one particular football club and those with far right political views. Why is that? I also notice in your polemic you are claiming the SNP are exploiting the sectarian divide- in what ways are they doing that?

Read what I wrote. It's quite clear from their use of language conflating things that are in fact quite separate. It seems to me the nationalists here have no answers for any of the points raised. Which is fairly typical, if unsurprising. If they actually started to engage on detail, the whole secessionist project would rapidly collapse, based as it is on anti-English bigotry and resentment.
 
Read what I wrote. It's quite clear from their use of language conflating things that are in fact quite separate. It seems to me the nationalists here have no answers for any of the points raised. Which is fairly typical.
I get the distinct impression that with you this is tribal or identitarian as you coyly introduced into your answer. I also have the idea you are impression managing here- after you introduced sectarianism you back peddled (flexing to its the economy stupid) and soft peddled through justifying and blame dumping. I’m sure you’re far more unbuttoned in the right company/ forum.
 
Yes that is the total upside down nature of Brexit. The levelling up counties voted Brexit. Go figure the logic. What do you think of Mick Lynch? Is he right about the Tories? He is calling them liars in public and there are no writs flying.

All politicians lie. I’m warming to the Lynch fellow. I disagree with his politics but admire his determination and straightforward approach.
 


advertisement


Back
Top