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Scottish Politics II

Ah, ET have you forgotten our one liner pact?
So mine is...
That the EU is less democratic than westminster is the usual discredited gammon jism you always come out with, and re Scotlands finances other less porky opinions are more convincing.https://www.businessforscotland.com/revealed-the-accounting-trick-that-hides-scotlands-wealth/

Interesting piece. It seems to me to be premised upon oil revenues raised in the 35 odd years prior to its publication, and upon a Scotland that was theoretically already independent. Now I have no dispute with the clear evidence that the UK's oil revenue was squandered, but the fact is that Scotland was, for all of that time, part of the UK, and thus the oil revenues were not hers, but the UK's. And there is no acknowledgment of the other fact, that the Scottish government is now ideologically opposed to the exploitation and use of oil and gas reserves. That particular horse has, sadly, bolted, and we are not talking about the past, but the future.

As you know, I am a great believer in self-determination. If Scotland really can go it alone, and that is what a majority of her people want, then she must go ahead and do it. My irritation with the narrative is that some of pfm's (and Scotland's) most vocal supporters of Scottish Nationalism appear to completely ignore the economic threat of placing a customs & regulatory border between itself and its biggest export customer, whilst exactly the same people are the most furiously vocal in criticising brexit on the sole basis of having done exactly the same thing. If you really believe that Scotland's potential and thus far wickedly suppressed wealth outweighs that not small consideration, then crack on.

On your other characteristically invective-splattered point, for all of its rackety faults and compromises, the UK Parliamentary system is infinitely more democratic than the EU system, and no amount of angrily shouting 'gammon jism' can change that awkward reality. Furthermore, it is a system that is alive and functioning, as we are witnessing right now. The PM is widely reviled, the party that he leads has completely lost credibility, and this is amongst its own core voters, let alone its opponents. So substantial is this shift that I am increasingly convinced that it is going to lead to a complete overhaul of our democracy and institutions of government. Something has, I think, fundamentally changed.

One of the most undeniably effective politicians of the last decade or so has been pfm's own public enemy No.1, the truly ghastly Nigel Farage. Strange times bring strange alliances. In yesterday's Daily Telegraph it was no less than he who authored a well-written piece arguing in favour of Proportional Representation, the replacement of the HoL with an elected Senate, and of a written Constitution.

As we know from bitter experience, we might ignore Nigel Farage at our peril, but it does seem odd that he is aligning with some of his fiercest critics, some of them people who find him so loathesome that they openly wished for a different outcome in that plane crash.

Democracy may have taken a battering in recent years, but some of us are so busy whingeing about its perceived iniquities that we can't even see that, outside of our ideological bunkers, it is quietly reconstituting itself.
 
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Interesting piece. It seems to me to be premised upon oil revenues raised in the 35 odd years prior to its publication, and upon a Scotland that was theoretically already independent. Now I have no dispute with the clear evidence that the UK's oil revenue was squandered, but the fact is that Scotland was, for all of that time, part of the UK, and thus the oil revenues were not hers, but the UK's. And there is no acknowledgment of the other fact, that the Scottish government is now ideologically opposed to the exploitation and use of oil and gas reserves. That particular horse has, sadly, bolted, and we are not talking about the past, but the future.

As you know, I am a great believer in self-determination. If Scotland really can go it alone, and that is what a majority of her people want, then she must go ahead and do it. My irritation with the narrative is that some of pfm's (and Scotland's) most vocal supporters of Scottish Nationalism appear to completely ignore the economic threat of placing a customs & regulatory border between itself and its biggest export customer, whilst exactly the same people are the most furiously vocal in criticising brexit on the sole basis of having done exactly the same thing. If you really believe that Scotland's potential and thus far wickedly suppressed wealth outweighs that not small consideration, then crack on.

On your other characteristically invective-splattered point, for all of its rackety faults and compromises, the UK Parliamentary system is infinitely more democratic than the EU system, and no amount of angrily shouting 'gammon jism' can change that awkward reality. Furthermore, it is a system that is alive and functioning, as we are witnessing right now. The PM is widely reviled, the party that he leads has completely lost credibility, and this is amongst its own core voters, let alone its opponents. So substantial is this shift that I am increasingly convinced that it is going to lead to a complete overhaul of our democracy and institutions of government. Something has, I think, fundamentally changed.

One of the most undeniably effective politicians of the last decade or so has been pfm's own public enemy No.1, the truly ghastly Nigel Farage. Strange times bring strange alliances. In yesterday's Daily Telegraph it was no less than he who authored a well-written piece arguing in favour of Proportional Representation, the replacement of the HoL with an elected Senate, and of a written Constitution.

As we know from bitter experience, we might ignore Nigel Farage at our peril, but it does seem odd that he is aligning with some of his fiercest critics, some of them people who find him so loathesome that they openly wished for a different outcome in that plane crash.

Democracy may have taken a battering in recent years, but some of us are so busy whingeing about its perceived iniquities that we can't even see that, outside of our ideological bunkers, it is quietly reconstituting itself.
Jesus, ET, you're just as self deluded about british democracy as the EU.
 

I see ET has already made the same point I was going to make in that the North Sea oil belongs to the whole of the UK and has NEVER been Scotland's oil/ gas.

It is also on record, as I have stated before, that North Sea oil revenues never made more than 5% of GDP. I'm not an economist and I can't argue as to whether or not the revenue was squandered or not but there was the other 95% of our GDP to prop us up???

As is also recorded the border in the North Sea as far as offshore oil and gas is concerned was re-aligned in agreement with whoever was First Minister at the time so that it now isn't on a line of latitude at a point of the England/ Scotland border but is an extension of the land border in a generally NE'ly direction which actually cuts off quite a bit of what might be considered "Scottish" waters in the event of a successful independence referendum.

As has also been stated the SNP/ Greens are politically connected with none fossil fuel energy sources and, in any case, fossil fuel out of the North Sea continues, overall, to be a declining asset.

Flying has to become more expensive (IMHO) this will reduce the amount of oversea's tourism all over the world - it is not environmentally acceptable for aviation to continue to expand and its day of reckoning cannot be far away.

I think a very hard, rational look needs to be taken on the subject of independence.

Far too much of the offshore wind business is going overseas with little benefit to the UK/ Scotland in terms of jobs or investment long term. I see this every day.

Regards

Richard
 
I see ET has already made the same point I was going to make in that the North Sea oil belongs to the whole of the UK and has NEVER been Scotland's oil/ gas.

It is also on record, as I have stated before, that North Sea oil revenues never made more than 5% of GDP. I'm not an economist and I can't argue as to whether or not the revenue was squandered or not but there was the other 95% of our GDP to prop us up???

As is also recorded the border in the North Sea as far as offshore oil and gas is concerned was re-aligned in agreement with whoever was First Minister at the time so that it now isn't on a line of latitude at a point of the England/ Scotland border but is an extension of the land border in a generally NE'ly direction which actually cuts off quite a bit of what might be considered "Scottish" waters in the event of a successful independence referendum.

As has also been stated the SNP/ Greens are politically connected with none fossil fuel energy sources and, in any case, fossil fuel out of the North Sea continues, overall, to be a declining asset.

Flying has to become more expensive (IMHO) this will reduce the amount of oversea's tourism all over the world - it is not environmentally acceptable for aviation to continue to expand and its day of reckoning cannot be far away.

I think a very hard, rational look needs to be taken on the subject of independence.

Far too much of the offshore wind business is going overseas with little benefit to the UK/ Scotland in terms of jobs or investment long term. I see this every day.

Regards

Richard

I share the same view about North Sea oil. I never bought the "It's Scotland's oil" line. It was discovered in the UK and recovered with UK enterprise and endeavour. It belongs to the whole of the UK. I was quite surprised at the way the UK and Scottish Governments both appeared to accept that it would become a Scottish asset post-independence. Maybe that's just the way these things are done.

Agree about the renewable business going elsewhere, it's a scandal. And the SNP seem happy to issue licenses and contracts to foreign "investors" (net extractors of wealth) for short-term piddling gains.
 
Good Evening All,

As I work in and around both the oil/ gas and wind industry I can vouch for the absence of high level UK investment. Projects such as Hywind off Peterhead, Kincardine off Stonehaven and the EOWDC in Aberdeen Bay had close to zero UK involvement (in real terms), foreign investors, foreign suppliers, foreign vessels and foreign workers and all this in UK waters.

I see the Spanish outfit that was going to partner with Global Energy in Nigg building a turbine mast construction facility have backed out.

There is something of a positive in that we do seem to be getting some of the decommissioning work with de-commissioned yards being re-opened.

I don't have a great deal of faith in the SNP abilities to oversee such matters after such as the Ferguson ferries disaster!

We have possibly allowed our competitors such as Vesta and Siemens to have gained such an enormous lead there isn't a hope in hell of catching up or competing. As for providing and manning the necessary vessels there is absolutely no hope after over 25yrs of neglect in that direction.

These are some of the reasons I feel an independent Scotland would not be well placed to deal with as it will find itself having to be grateful for 'scraps at the table'.

Regards

Richard
 
Good Evening All,

As I work in and around both the oil/ gas and wind industry I can vouch for the absence of high level UK investment. Projects such as Hywind off Peterhead, Kincardine off Stonehaven and the EOWDC in Aberdeen Bay had close to zero UK involvement (in real terms), foreign investors, foreign suppliers, foreign vessels and foreign workers and all this in UK waters.

I see the Spanish outfit that was going to partner with Global Energy in Nigg building a turbine mast construction facility have backed out.

There is something of a positive in that we do seem to be getting some of the decommissioning work with de-commissioned yards being re-opened.

I don't have a great deal of faith in the SNP abilities to oversee such matters after such as the Ferguson ferries disaster!

We have possibly allowed our competitors such as Vesta and Siemens to have gained such an enormous lead there isn't a hope in hell of catching up or competing. As for providing and manning the necessary vessels there is absolutely no hope after over 25yrs of neglect in that direction.

These are some of the reasons I feel an independent Scotland would not be well placed to deal with as it will find itself having to be grateful for 'scraps at the table'.

Regards

Richard

Did you miss out a word Richard?
"These are some of the reasons I feel an independent Scotland would not be well placed to deal with (.......? )as it will find itself having to be grateful for 'scraps at the table'."

Your post could be a summary of what is wrong with much of UK industry. Actual, real, heavy industry, I mean. A lack of any long-term national strategy, lack of involvement of engineers, scientists and technicians at national planning level and a preference for financiers, accountants, old pals networks at board level, instead of people who know the job at hand. Out-sourcing everything and sub-contracting all the value away.
Other north European countries seem to do this better than us. They seem to have a focus on doing what is right for their country and people, rather than doing what will produce short-term profit for a small circle of global wealth extractors.
The only way to change it would be to make a start, however slowly, towards a home-grown heavy industrial sector. It would be slow, painstaking work for sure, but worthwhile and possible.
This is the kind of task I can never see a London-based government undertaking. Why would they? If a future iScottish government were to undertake the task, it would need to be one made from different stuff than the current SNP. Standing on a ticket of re-building a modern Scottish manufacturing industry would be a powerful attraction. I'd vote for it.
 
One of the most undeniably effective politicians of the last decade or so has been pfm's own public enemy No.1, the truly ghastly Nigel Farage. Strange times bring strange alliances. In yesterday's Daily Telegraph it was no less than he who authored a well-written piece arguing in favour of Proportional Representation, the replacement of the HoL with an elected Senate, and of a written Constitution.

As we know from bitter experience, we might ignore Nigel Farage at our peril, but it does seem odd that he is aligning with some of his fiercest critics, some of them people who find him so loathesome that they openly wished for a different outcome in that plane crash.

I know I once foolishly said you’re far more entertaining when you let your junk hang out but that’s far too whiffy . Touting the notorious British racist Farage on pfm while posing as his critic in the same breath. “some might think he’s a frog faced fascist but he does make some exceedingly good points does he not?”.
 
In a theoretical EU member 'independent' Wales, how many MEPs would the country be able to send to Brussels for lunch. One, two?
In a theoretical non fascist uk how many terms would it take us to vote out a government of fascist gangsters, if they inveigled themselves into power?
One term?
Two terms?
Never because they are able to game democracy by controlling the media, the voting system, who can vote and gerrymandering the FPTP constituency boundaries?
 
In a theoretical non fascist uk how many terms would it take us to vote out a government of fascist gangsters, if they inveigled themselves into power?
One term?
Two terms?
Never because they are able to game democracy by controlling the media, the voting system, who can vote and gerrymandering the FPTP constituency boundaries?

Sounds like the SNP to me.

  • Mob rule when it comes to business and media outlets that step out of line? (Tunnock's teacake anybody? Full disclosure - I'm from Lanarkshire and know a guy who used to look after Archie Tunnock's garden).
  • The fake Scottish Green Party that only exists to soak up second preference votes for secession.
  • Votes for 16 year olds, while at the same time packing the curruculum with questionable 'Scottish' history that rewrites lowland history and turns Scotland into a victim of empire rather than a lucratively rewarded participant in it.

Indeed, everything you'd expect from a party (the SNP) that began in the Fascist era and had leaders willing to negotiate with the Nazis to run a Quisling-type state in return for 'independence' (shades of post-'independence' obeissance before Brussels - any rule rather than 'English' rule).

All complicated with the SNP increasingly getting in bed with Sinn Fein - all cosy 'Republicans' together. How long before these eejits start letting off bombs in English pubs, so hyper has SNP rhetoric become in the face of its own political incompetence?
 
Sounds like the SNP to me.

  • Mob rule when it comes to business and media outlets that step out of line? (Tunnock's teacake anybody? Full disclosure - I'm from Lanarkshire).
  • The fake Scottish Green Party that only exists to soak up second preference votes for secession.
  • Votes for 16 year olds, while at the same time packing the curruculum with questionable 'Scottish' history that rewrites lowland history and turns Scotland into a victim of empire rather than a lucratively rewarded participant in it.

Indeed, everything you'd expect from a party (the SNP) that began in the Fascist era and had leaders willing to negotiate with the Nazis to run a Quisling-type state in return for 'independence' (shades of post-'independence' obeissance before Brussels - any rule rather than 'English' rule).

All complicated with the SNP increasingly getting in bed with Sinn Fein - all cosy 'Republicans' together. How long before these eejits start letting off bombs in English pubs, so hyper has SNP rhetoric become in the face of its own political incompetence?
Farage fanboi deluded toss, you have previous form. Still, instructive to get a glimpse into the brexit voting gammon mind. Ad hom? Plenty of past posts of yours on this and other forums to back this up...
Wee reminder, you're not on art of un-sound mind now.
 
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^this
 

Not me I'm afraid I was brought up a Catholic, but in a family steeped in the values of the UK armed forces. I find the whole Orange thing pretty distasteful and the word 'Unionist' quite unhelpful in the argument with SNP loons who'd rather beggar the country than admit how mad seccession would be.

I don't drink Buckfast either.
 


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