Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

[molee]

This is The Genetic Fallacy - you’re confusing what they were, their origins, with what they have become, what they are now.

If the Labour Party is moving to the space formerly occupied by The Conservatives, then it’s a good idea for them to disassociate themselves from strikes. They will be the party of paternalistic capitalism.

Absolutely, another fallacy is to a) conflate the part of the poitical spectrum occupied by the big three parties with the spectrum itself and b) that these parties occupy the middle or centrist ground of that spectrum.

Labour have demonstrated, in the breach, what their relationship with the unions is on innumerable occasions. Their cynicism is matched only by that of many of the unions themselves. They deserve each other while the average working person deserves neither.

 

[mandryka]

Paternalistic capitalism would be the idea that they should accept not to have their 10% reinstated (for the good of everyone - workers and shareholders are stakeholders, both need to see the business flourish.)

However if any employee gets into trouble at the end of the month, he just needs to knock on the door of his manager and see whether the company can help him out - extra overtime maybe, or the promise that if he works hard he’ll be considered for promotion.

If I remember right, Mr Pickwick was a paternalistic capitalist.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Paternalistic capitalism would be the idea that they should accept not to have their 10% reinstated (for the good of everyone - workers and shareholders are stakeholders, both need to see the business flourish.)

However if any employee gets into trouble at the end of the month, he just needs to knock on the door of his manager and see whether the company can help him out - extra overtime maybe, or the promise that if he works hard he’ll be considered for promotion.

If I remember right, Mr Pickwick was a paternalistic capitalist.

Ah back to the 1800s. Pay staff as little as possible and make them grovel when they're broke. Heaven forfend they might be paid enough to live off or even to put a little aside - they'll only spend it on drink.

Do the managers also accept not to have their 10% reinstated, for the good of everyone, in this scenario?

 

[molee]

Rather more reasonable than the unnamed Conservative councillor

Yes, but aren't we all? CL steered a 'nuanced' path throughout that dispute indulging in a bit of 'photo op litter picking' just to create a bit of wriggle room. Amongst other ploys.

 

[Tony L]

A completely unsubstantiated Twitter rumour that a Tory to Lab defection is fairly imminent. I’m amazed Labour take them. The last one was a pretty nasty piece of work as far as I could tell, very gammon.

To add to this the Torygraph is now suggesting no less than three Tory ‘red wall’ gammons might be looking to defect to Labour. Obviously I’m not going to link to the Torygraph, its paywalled anyway, so here’s the story on Twitter.

Labour need to tell them all to do one if it is to retain even a shred of dignity or integrity. Humiliating the Tories for a few minutes just isn’t worth getting stuck with yet more Farage wannabe racists, far-right nationalists etc in the party. If this was about taking Heidi Allen or even Rory Stewart-grade Tories I could maybe understand it, but every last shit left in that party signed up to Britain Trump’s Bannon ideology, and the vast majority of them lined-up to try and rewrite parliamentary rules to legalise Owen Patterson’s corruption and stayed on for even worse. They have all defended the indefensible in countless ways day in and day out for years now. There are simply no good Tories left since the 2019 purge/CUK exodus. Not one. Labour must let the scum that is left sink in their own mess.

 

[Tony L]

David Lammy reverses out over BA unions (Twitter). I have respect for politicians who are capable of admitting their mistakes and correcting them. It is but a trace element in the Hoc.

 

[paulfromcamden]

David Lammy reverses out over BA unions (Twitter). I have respect for politicians who are capable of admitting their mistakes and correcting them. It is but a trace element in the Hoc.

Fair enough I guess. Though he seems to be admitting that he didn't know the basic facts of the dispute and is blaming his on answer on 'mishearing' the question. Not great for a shadow minister.

In a letter to a constituent involved in the dispute, first reported by the Mirror, Lammy said he had been misinformed, and believed the staff were pressing for a 10% pay rise. In fact, they are asking for the reinstatement of pay that was cut during the pandemic, and protesting against what they say are “fire and rehire” tactics by the airline.
Lammy said he had “misheard” Raworth’s question. “When she said that workers wanted to reverse a previous pay cut of 10%, I mistakenly understood it to mean that they were seeking an above-inflation pay rise,” he wrote. “I was not across the details of the case. It is right that those of us in public life admit when they have made a mistake. With this in mind, I apologise to all BA workers.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gises-for-getting-facts-wrong-about-ba-strike

 

[Seanm]

What an absolutely craven bullshitter. He jumped on that with a great deal of enthusiasm, declaring himself and his party “categorically” against the strikes, despite not knowing the first thing about them. The only reason you would do that is because you’re very sure about what you’re *supposed* to say. Turns out he was wrong. That’s what he’s apologising for here and it’s not the kind of correction for which he deserves any credit at all.

 

[monkfish]

What an absolutely craven bullshitter. He jumped on that with a great deal of enthusiasm, declaring himself and his party “categorically” against the strikes, despite not knowing the first thing about them. The only reason you would do that is because you’re very sure about what you’re *supposed* to say. Turns out he was wrong. That’s what he’s apologising for here and it’s not the kind of correction for which he deserves any credit at all.

I agree.

 

[Brian]

What an absolutely craven bullshitter. He jumped on that with a great deal of enthusiasm, declaring himself and his party “categorically” against the strikes, despite not knowing the first thing about them. The only reason you would do that is because you’re very sure about what you’re *supposed* to say. Turns out he was wrong. That’s what he’s apologising for here and it’s not the kind of correction for which he deserves any credit at all.

Spot on.

 

[mandryka]

What an absolutely craven bullshitter. He jumped on that with a great deal of enthusiasm, declaring himself and his party “categorically” against the strikes, despite not knowing the first thing about them. The only reason you would do that is because you’re very sure about what you’re *supposed* to say. Turns out he was wrong. That’s what he’s apologising for here and it’s not the kind of correction for which he deserves any credit at all.

Agreed apart from one thing: I just can’t believe that he wasn’t aware that they weren’t asking for a 10% rise. Even I was aware of that. Put it like this: if he wasn’t aware it’s appalling, and if he was aware it’s appalling.

 

[Kirk]

Lammy apologies. Politics is all the better for it.

 

[Enfield boy]

He just forgot to read the room. Can we have lots of sector appropriate Mick Lynchs in all walks of life, the meejah and, perhaps, even the Labour party?

 

[ks.234]

Lammy apologies. Politics is all the better for it.

Having apologised for getting his facts materially wrong, does Lammy now support the strike? Or does being wrong make no difference?

 

[gavreid]

When the mood shifts people get caught out but don't underestimate their capacity to talk left when the penny finally drops...

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Blair wittering on about a new type of politics on R4 this morning. He was making supportive noises in Starmer's direction. Claims he's not trying to set up a new, centrist party, but trying to change the style of politics in the UK. Good luck with that, but maybe if he hadn't severed the Labour party's heart 25 years ago, it'd not be quite the uphill task it is now.

 

[Tony L]

Seems to be a fair bit of Twitter noise suggesting the Tories are prepping for a snap general election and are already briefing junior MPs etc to be ready. I find this unlikely given how hated and discredited Johnson is, but here’s an interesting theory (Twitter).

PS I’m in no way suggesting the police aren’t bent enough to act in an entirely partisan and far-right manner. The Met tell us they are on a daily basis!

 

[gavreid]

I don't think people will be taken for fools for a 2nd time - sounds like a song

 

[ks.234]

Blair wittering on about a new type of politics on R4 this morning. He was making supportive noises in Starmer's direction. Claims he's not trying to set up a new, centrist party, but trying to change the style of politics in the UK. Good luck with that, but maybe if he hadn't severed the Labour party's heart 25 years ago, it'd not be quite the uphill task it is now.

He’s got exactly the party he has fought tooth an nail for, why does he want to change it?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Seems to be a fair bit of Twitter noise suggesting the Tories are prepping for a snap general election and are already briefing junior MPs etc to be ready. I find this unlikely given how hated and discredited Johnson is, but here’s an interesting theory (Twitter).

PS I’m in no way suggesting the police aren’t bent enough to act in an entirely partisan and far-right manner. The Met tell us they are on a daily basis!

I hope and believe that Durham Police can be expected to hold higher standards than the Met. Though their failure in the Cummings eye test matter isn't encouraging, that was fairly early days and I think lessons were learnt.