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Scottish Politics II

Only if they've been on the Buckie too long.
These numbers, they seem to have magically different assigned values north or south of Gretna. Might the question have been stimulated by the knowledge that 5% of UKIP voters apparently voted to remain in the EU?
 
It is as if, somehow, the SNP and Sturgeon are being interviewed for a job as "Rulers of Scotland for All Time". That is not what is happening.

The question in front of us is "Should Scotland be an Independent Country?" That's it.

The answer to all the side questions: "But, what would you do about....this, that and the other?" is simple: "Same as any other independent country." We'd sort it out to the best of our ability, with varying levels of cooperation and goodwill from neighbouring countries. Some things will go wrong. Some will go well. Mistakes will be made. Heads will roll.

You don't achieve your full potential by allowing your neighbour to make all the important decisions for you and managing your money. For the very simple reason that they are just not as interested in your wellbeing and potential as you are yourself.
Nobody is asking for anything different of nationalists in this thread to what is being asked by those same nationalists in the brexit thread.

I agree heads will roll in a later GE, but again, that is not a reason to leave the UK just the same as it is not a reason to vote for leaving the EU.

These numbers, they seem to have magically different assigned values north or south of Gretna.
The numbers are clear but they are big, especially the number who didn’t vote SNP and definitely bigger than 41-40.

SNP = Single issue, virtual oblivion after leaving the UK. Remind you of anything?

Edit: I see you made an edit after I posted my reply above. Just to be clear, I did not selectively quote your post, yet again you added the passive aggressive thing about UKIP after I had replied to your post. Repeating this UKIP thing as you do will not make the lie/misrepresentation become true. It is obvious what I support and that is centre left policies and fairness across all parts of the UK. You support only Scotland.
 
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If we get independence then wee Hitler will be in charge to continue to do absolutely nothing about drugs misuse, educations, poverty, mental health issues etc after 8 years of blaming Westminster for all of Scotland's woes.

But, how can any government address all these social problems with less and less money? Public services in England, and therefore Scotland, (because we get a set proportion of what is spent in England) have had their budgets cut continually since the Tories won power in 2010. The real-terms cuts to Education, Housing, Mental Health etc are massive. Austerity means the need for social services increases at the same time as the services are cut. It is a recipe for misery and poverty and it is a political choice.

If we want to make different political choices, then we need the power to make those choices. If you want a Scottish government that is not dependant on Westminster, then you will need to vote for an independent Scottish government.
 
The SNP themselves are devoid of bad faith and lies - really?

Regards

Richard

Why do you think I need to defend the SNP? You are starting to troll Richard. It's tedious.

I said "...after so much bad faith and lies, it matters very little what any UK PM says or promises...who can trust them now?"

Some of the SNP will be liars and some of them may operate with bad faith. That has zero influence on the level of trust we might place in what Boris Johnson says or promises. He is rather well-known for his lying and mendacity. It is his trademark. His brand. Do you disagree?
 
But, how can any government address all these social problems with less and less money? Public services in England, and therefore Scotland, (because we get a set proportion of what is spent in England) have had their budgets cut continually since the Tories won power in 2010. The real-terms cuts to Education, Housing, Mental Health etc are massive. Austerity means the need for social services increases at the same time as the services are cut. It is a recipe for misery and poverty and it is a political choice.

If we want to make different political choices, then we need the power to make those choices. If you want a Scottish government that is not dependant on Westminster, then you will need to vote for an independent Scottish government.

Westminster subsidy is £41BN a year. Day zero of independence, that goes to zero. Where is the £41BN going to come from to stand still, let alone spend more money? Oh, and even with the £41BN a year, the SNP deficit is projected to be £3.5BN a year by 2026. Where is the money going to come from?
 
Westminster subsidy is £41BN a year. Day zero of independence, that goes to zero. Where is the £41BN going to come from to stand still, let alone spend more money? Oh, and even with the £41BN a year, the SNP deficit is projected to be £3.5BN a year by 2026. Where is the money going to come from?

They could introduce University tuition fees and increase the lower rate of income tax to 20p....a bit like in the rest of the UK.
 
...You don't achieve your full potential by allowing your neighbour to make all the important decisions for you and managing your money...

Are you supportive of a Scotland, liberated from the shackles of the Barnett Formula, joining the EU?

If so, your not so near neighbour would be making all the important decisions for you, and managing your money.
 
But, how can any government address all these social problems with less and less money? Public services in England, and therefore Scotland, (because we get a set proportion of what is spent in England) have had their budgets cut continually since the Tories won power in 2010. The real-terms cuts to Education, Housing, Mental Health etc are massive. Austerity means the need for social services increases at the same time as the services are cut. It is a recipe for misery and poverty and it is a political choice.

If we want to make different political choices, then we need the power to make those choices. If you want a Scottish government that is not dependant on Westminster, then you will need to vote for an independent Scottish government.
If you leave the UK you will become dependant on the EU on joining, so it’s worth pointing out the EU is also in favour of austerity as a political choice.

How does Scotland meet the criteria for joining the EU while spending more on services? What happens before Scotland gets to join the EU? How long before Scotland can join the EU? All valid questions for SNP supporters.

Why do you think I need to defend the SNP? You are starting to troll Richard. It's tedious.

I said "...after so much bad faith and lies, it matters very little what any UK PM says or promises...who can trust them now?"

Some of the SNP will be liars and some of them may operate with bad faith. That has zero influence on the level of trust we might place in what Boris Johnson says or promises. He is rather well-known for his lying and mendacity. It is his trademark. His brand. Do you disagree?
Richard is not trolling.
 
You are starting to troll Richard. It's tedious.

You are being serious???? Any less tedious than posts from people claiming that independence is the answer to the current UK government (mis)management?

I will keep stating that everybody in Scotland needs to see beyond the rose tinted glasses view and ensure we avoid a knee jerk reaction and find ourselves in an alternative sh*tsorm.

I live here and have a vested interest. The SNP have questions to answer and I'm sorry but the reply along the lines of "We haven't quite dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's but trust us" type response doesn't quite cut it with me.

As you asked can you find any post here on this forum where I have posted anything about placing trust in Boris Johnson? As I have stated previously I didn't vote for him or his party which I think I answers your question.

Regards

Richard
 
You are being serious????

Richard

I am being serious. I responded to the poster's question about whether the UK returning to the EU would reduce the wish for a second indyref amongst Scots by saying probably not, because even if it were promised, we can't trust Boris who is a liar (fact) and operates in bad faith (also fact) to deliver on any promise. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the SNP.

You then replied to me with: "The SNP themselves are devoid of bad faith and lies - really?"

Your (troll-like) reply to me makes it seem as if I was:
A) Asserting that the SNP are somehow perfect (I didn't)
and
B) Making a comparison between the SNP and Boris (I wasn't)

Your reply was just "whataboutery", distraction and misdirection. It served no purpose other than to generate friction (hence, troll-like).

PS: Your point about wanting more information is a good one. There are credible pro-independence economists, business people, think-tanks, commentators out there and many, many more anti-independence sources.
If you want to know more you can read what they all have to say. You are not "trusting" the SNP if you vote for self-government, you are trusting your fellow countrymen (and women) and civic institutions to behave like the normal, everyday citizens and institutions of any other independent country. Are we incapable of that? How so? What is our unique handicap in Scotland?
 
I can't help harbouring a feeling that the SNP are obsessed by the idea of independence and not realistically addressing underlying issues they didn't appear to have answers to or did and decided to keep them to themselves - kind of a 'muddling through' approach.

As I have previously stated there were inadequately answered questions with regards to Brexit and if I see a similar approach from the SNP with respect to the independence referendum then I'm hardly going to be 100% for it. I would have to disagree with you because, certainly in the first instance, the SNP are in charge and thus directing institutions.

I am all for credible sources of information but it is still a 'big leap' and events beyond the control/ borders of Scotland could have disproportionate effects on 5.25million as opposed to 60+million.

Regards

Richard
 
Don't overestimate the idealism driving tory opposition to an independent Scotland, it is cynical self interest - I'd put 80 percent of gammon opposion in Westminster as being down to, as in N. I., not wanting the obvious example of EU membership success next to the failing state of which they are the architects.
And conversely, don't underestimate the lengths they will go to in order to avoid this. They have, in N. I., thrown the duppers under a bus, and are quite happy to break international law, risk terrorism kicking off in earnest and sacrificed the biggest trade deal the UK might have got, post brexit. Just to stop those unfavorable comparisons...
Wonder how far they'd go in Scotland?
 
Re Scotlands financial chances post leaving.
Theyd be a sparsely populated country without a corrupt government.
They have considerable natural resources, both oil and renewables.
They have tourism as a resource as well, and this would be helped by restoring EU feedom of movement.
They would, on rejoining the EU, be in a position to enjoy all trading advantages, and democratic ones of belonging to that organisation.
Re the billions pontius claims they consume, I can't remember the exact details but it was clarified upthread that these figures are unreliable and deceiving, using amongst other sleights of hand the servicing of Scottish debt as a smokescreen. Perhaps someone who remembers the source will post or link to the information on this.
 
I can't help harbouring a feeling that the SNP are obsessed by the idea of independence and not realistically addressing underlying issues they didn't appear to have answers to or did and decided to keep them to themselves - kind of a 'muddling through' approach.

As I have previously stated there were inadequately answered questions with regards to Brexit and if I see a similar approach from the SNP with respect to the independence referendum then I'm hardly going to be 100% for it. I would have to disagree with you because, certainly in the first instance, the SNP are in charge and thus directing institutions.

I am all for credible sources of information but it is still a 'big leap' and events beyond the control/ borders of Scotland could have disproportionate effects on 5.25million as opposed to 60+million.

Regards

Richard

Those are all reasonable points. I guess that any political party proposing major disruption and dislocation is going to take a kind of "it'll be all right on the night" kind of stance.

I think there is a difficulty for the SNP in addressing your "underlying issues". If Sturgeon announced tomorrow that an iScotland would create it's own currency on day one, can you imagine the media frenzy, attacks, outrange, undermining etc? Likewise "keep the pound" produces a similar frenzy. As the party holding power, they have a vested interest in soothing any fears.

That's why I look to independent, non-government sources for analysis. When you move away from Tory-funded or wealthy, vested-interest information sources, they are mostly quite equable about how an iScotland would fare.

It would be a major disruption. Some of it will go wrong. Some people could be worse off financially for a few years perhaps...who knows? Demanding certainty and guarantees feed demagoguery. Anyone promising a guarantee about the future is probably making it up.
 
Those are all reasonable points. I guess that any political party proposing major disruption and dislocation is going to take a kind of "it'll be all right on the night" kind of stance.

I think there is a difficulty for the SNP in addressing your "underlying issues". If Sturgeon announced tomorrow that an iScotland would create it's own currency on day one, can you imagine the media frenzy, attacks, outrange, undermining etc? Likewise "keep the pound" produces a similar frenzy. As the party holding power, they have a vested interest in soothing any fears.

That's why I look to independent, non-government sources for analysis. When you move away from Tory-funded or wealthy, vested-interest information sources, they are mostly quite equable about how an iScotland would fare.

It would be a major disruption. Some of it will go wrong. Some people could be worse off financially for a few years perhaps...who knows? Demanding certainty and guarantees feed demagoguery. Anyone promising a guarantee about the future is probably making it up.
Your view from an accumulation of posts sounds very much like brexit and those 17.4m gammons apparently not knowing what they were voting for.

As ever, if you achieve independence I wish you good luck. My own position is for the UK to be fair and to prosper. If Scotland leaves I won’t suddenly be against Scots and I hope it works out. I may even get to vote if it’s beyond 2024.
 
Re Scotlands financial chances post leaving.

Theyd be a sparsely populated country without a corrupt government.

The first point is uncontentious, the second is not.

They have considerable natural resources, both oil and renewables.

The current Scottish government, together with the Greens, are ideologically opposed to the extraction and use of fossil fuels. I believe the oil industry employs around 100,000 people. They certainly have plenty of space for wind turbines. EU competition and subsidy rules will ensure that the contracts for the construction of the turbines will not go to Scottish fabrication yards, but to (subsidised) Spanish and Malaysian ones.

Their greatest natural resouce may well turn out to be water.

They have tourism as a resource as well, and this would be helped by restoring EU feedom of movement.

The vast majority of Scotland's tourist visitors are from other parts of the UK, and they spend £3.7bn. 37% of overseas visitors come from the US, Canada and Australia. EU members Germany & France constitute 17% of Scotland's overseas tourist visitors. Collectively overseas visitors spend £806m.

They would, on rejoining the EU, be in a position to enjoy all trading advantages, and democratic ones of belonging to that organisation.

Scotland's largest trading partner is rUK, accounting for 60% of exports. Upon joining the EU a customs and regulatory border would have to be erected between Scotland and its biggest customer by far. The EU takes up less than 20% of Scotland's exports. The EU institutions are demonstrably undemocratic. As well as having its own independent Government and Parliament, Scotland enjoys something of a democratic surfeit at Westminster, with 56 of 650 odd MPs. At Brussels Scotland would provide 7 of the European Parliament's potential 712 MEPs. The European Parliament, however, does not make EU laws, whereas Westminster, outside of the EU, makes British ones.

Re the billions pontius claims they consume, I can't remember the exact details but it was clarified upthread that these figures are unreliable and deceiving, using amongst other sleights of hand the servicing of Scottish debt as a smokescreen. Perhaps someone who remembers the source will post or link to the information on this.

The UK's finances are a matter of public record, they are not invented by the PM. If Scotland's public expenditure deficit really is the near 22% currently recorded, then a future independent Scottish government would have a bitch of a struggle to reduce that deficit to the 3% required under EU rules. It would be what I have seen described as 'sado-austerity' and would potentially involve the closure of all public services, including schools and hospitals. All to hand that precious, newly-won independence over to Brussels?

Oh, and that, of course, is if Brussels will accept Scotland as a member.
 
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The first point is uncontentious, the second is not.



The current Scottish government, together with the Greens, are ideologically opposed to the extraction and use of fossil fuels. I believe the oil industry employs around 100,000 people. They certainly have plenty of space for wind turbines. EU competition and subsidy rules will ensure that the contracts for the construction of the turbines will not go to Scottish fabrication yards, but to (subsidised) Spanish and Malaysian ones.

Their greatest natural resouce may well turn out to be water.



The vast majority of Scotland's tourist visitors are from other parts of the UK, and they spend £3.7bn. 37% of overseas visitors come from the US, Canada and Australia. EU members Germany & France constitute 17% of Scotland's tourist visitors. Collectively overseas visitors spend £806m.



Scotland's largest trading partner is rUK, accounting for 60% of exports. Upon joining the EU a customs and regulatory border would have to be erected between Scotland and its biggest customer by far. The EU takes up less than 20% of Scotland's exports. The EU institutions are demonstrably undemocratic. As well as having its own independent Government and Parliament, Scotland enjoys something of a democratic surfeit at Westminster, with 56 of 650 odd MPs. At Brussels Scotland would provide 7 of the European Parliament's potential 712 MEPs. The European Parliament, however, does not make EU laws, whereas Westminster, outside of the EU, makes British ones.



The UK's finances are a matter of public record, they are not invented by the PM. If Scotland's public expenditure deficit really is the near 22% currently recorded, then a future independent Scottish government would have a bitch of a struggle to reduce that deficit to the 3% required under EU rules. It would be what I have seen described as 'sado-austerity' and would potentially involve the closure of all public services, including schools and hospitals. All to hand that precious, newly-won independence over to Brussels?

Oh, and that, of course, is if Brussels will accept Scotland as a member.
Ah, ET have you forgotten our one liner pact?
So mine is...
That the EU is less democratic than westminster is the usual discredited gammon jism you always come out with, and re Scotlands finances other less porky opinions are more convincing.https://www.businessforscotland.com/revealed-the-accounting-trick-that-hides-scotlands-wealth/
 
That’s excellent news, problem solved. Presumably there would be no issue if HM treasury turned off the taps tomorrow.. Just think, Scotland could have covered their covid bill, build houses for everyone and plenty more. Amazing they hadn’t thought if it before. You’re going to tell me Wales could economically stand in its own 2 feet next.
 
That’s excellent news, problem solved. Presumably there would be no issue if HM treasury turned off the taps tomorrow.. Just think, Scotland could have covered their covid bill, build houses for everyone and plenty more. Amazing they hadn’t thought if it before. You’re going to tell me Wales could economically stand in its own 2 feet next.
Turning off the taps? Lets see how the value of water goes...
 


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