Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Probably only until the next GE.
Scottish Politics II
- Thread starter TheDecameron
- Start date
Probably only until the next GE.
monkfish
pfm Member
Her first term would show what she's about and if we don't like it we can vote otherwise. We obviously don't have any chance against the number of votes in England v the amount in Scotland which is giving us tory mayhem, How could giving ourselves more choice be a bad thing?
White Zombie
pfm Member
I totally agree that is exactly the way it should be. Maybe I'm wrong but I think most folk voting yes can't really see past the SNP. The two go hand in hand. I just envision a one party state ran by incompetents who would keep the average punter on their side by reminding them of how they got them independence and at least we're not run by the evil English and the vast majority would lap it up.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I don’t understand the complaint. Does anybody?
Scottish independence affects the UK, anyone living in, or from the UK may have a legitimate interest.
We have many members from overseas commenting in the brexit thread. Nobody sees an issue with that. There is no reason why comment and opinion about Scottish politics should be restricted to Scots. There is a pattern that is easy to spot, yes.
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Richard Lines
pfm Member
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
In what way are the tories killing people in Scotland? I’m no tory supporter, I think they’re killing people in England. Doesn’t the SNP make the decisions in Scotland?
White Zombie
pfm Member
There have been a few comments on here that to me just highlight the classic SNP mentality. Just continue focusing on the faults of the Tories and blaming everyone else whilst being wilfully blind to their own failures.
As I said as a Scottish unionist it’s grim either way. I try my best not to care though and just try an enjoy life
As I said as a Scottish unionist it’s grim either way. I try my best not to care though and just try an enjoy life
LecsonQuad
pfm Member
I think the future of the SNP in an independant Scotland might not be that different to that of the Labour party in a devolved Scotland. Devolution led to Labour tanking from what they thought would be their exclusive territory. Once independant Labour and the Lib Dems would do much better.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The only way back for Labour in Scotland is to drop their fundamentalist opposition to independence. They used to run Scotland now they have a single MP left at Westminster compared with the SNP’s 48. That gives you an idea of the scale of the rout. A tide of voters left them for the SNP and now they’re reduced to doing power sharing deals with the Tories in local authorities. The main unionist vote in Scotland is Tory- they have six times as many Scottish seats as Labour in Westminster ( not that that’s saying much).
wulbert
pfm Member
If we vote "No" this time around we are in for a "doing"...big time (and would probably deserve it too).
"If we get independence then wee Hitler will be in charge" How do you work that out? Sturgeon and the SNP will have no reason to exist after independence. It's mainly the unresolved issue of independence that keeps the SNP in power.
Fair enough, there may be a wee honeymoon period and wave of euphoria that will carry the SNP for a few months if they win a referendum. But after that, first Scottish General Election and all the opposition parties will be truly Scottish ones...Scottish Labour, Lib Dems, Scottish Conservatives. I see Scottish Labour having a major resurgence post-independence and the Tories as well. Opposition parties will become a home for all the "I never voted for this and it's shite" voters as well as those who want to see a more socially democratic government.
Sturgeon will likely eff off to a fancy job in the UN or somewhere else anyway.
As a reality check...see if you can find a direct quote where Sturgeon blames "Westminster" for our Education record, drug deaths and mental health waiting times. All I can find is her apologising.
Put aside your dislike of the SNP for a moment and ask yourself if you want to be ruled by Eton toffs for the rest of your puff. That's exactly what is on the cards if we stay in the UK. And they are only just getting started on the corruption and looting.
tonerei
pfm Member
Agree with all that. UK folks don't seem to get that the world changes. Over here Fianna Fail was always king player and sometimes Fine Gael did a Labour and got into power for a time. Now it requires both parties to coalesce with the help of others to form a government. Next time it looks like Sinn Fein with others will form the government. Labour are a busted flush and nothing they are doing at the moment suggests there is going to be a dramatic change. There is no doubt that the make up of an independent Scottish parliament would look entirely different.
Whilst I understand the rush to get out and think haste now might lead to a long repentance. The numbers don't look to be there or if so just about. Wish you all luck. Being ruled by the Tories is not very nice.
I may be wrong about this but I thought the Scots have been keen to try various progressive drug/addiction interventions for some time now but Westminster keeps rejecting their suggestions.
All governments have problems, but the SNP should be able to run Scotland and work towards independence at the same time without too much bother.
In today's PMQs, Ian Blackford asked Raab about the advantages of staying in the Union. He did not answer.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
How can a party committed to the UK be anything other than against Scotland breaking up the UK?
Talking about the rout. I will remind you again, in the 2019 GE, out of 4,053,140 registered voters 1,242,380 voted SNP, 2,810,760 people did not.
692,939 voted Tory
511,838 voted Labour
That sort of gets to the nub of the question - would EU membership alone persuade enough swing voters/lukewarm types in Scotland to vote no and scupper independence. Suspect we will never know.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
EU re-entry is a toxic waste deposit in English politics. Labour won’t go near it unless they win the next two GEs. The notion of keeping your powder dry in Scotland in the event that Westminster one day moves in that general direction is unrealistic. The draw of Europe and the repulsion from Tory U.K. Govt is now the motor that drives that remarkable voting pattern in Scotland and the fact that toothless Labour opposition for 12 years has achieved nothing.
Ponty
pfm Member
Fascinating numbers Brian. Not quite the slam dunk many portray. This may sound a ludicrous question, but are there SNP voters in a GE who would vote no to independence?
wulbert
pfm Member
Well, not really, since she's only over been in charge in a devolved administration with limited powers. An independent country would be a completely different ball game. Which party and politician do you think would have made a better job? Where would we be now if your chosen leader/party was in charge? What brilliant opposition policy proposals has the SNP killed off?
The SNP are timid, centralising, managerial and at times insufferably annoying. They govern a very limited parliament that essentially receives pocket money. If you want "proper" politicians you'll need to vote to live in a proper country, rather than a quietly despised northern province.
wulbert
pfm Member
It bothers me that you are so unhappy with where we are today. The current situation is what you voted for in 2014...rule from London and whatever government the people south of the border vote for. Would things be better for you if the SNP had disappeared in 2014? How?
It might be worth re-examining your assumption that independence somehow means SNP rule for all time. It doesn't. You'd be able to actually influence who runs Scotland with your vote. What is it you would feel you would lose by Scotland being self-governed? I'd really like to understand.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
@wulbert Quietly despised northern province.
What on earth makes you say that?
If it is announced there will be no referendum in 2023, is it likely SNP support could swing back to Labour (where many of you were before 2015) in 2024 if Labour promises a referendum in 2029 after winning a 2nd term in govt? That’s what Labour should offer, they need a chance to improve on the tory govt.
The line of thought the SNP would disappear on independence is exactly my thought. It’s what generally happens when a party stands on a single issue, UKIP and the Brexit party being recent examples.
What on earth makes you say that?
If it is announced there will be no referendum in 2023, is it likely SNP support could swing back to Labour (where many of you were before 2015) in 2024 if Labour promises a referendum in 2029 after winning a 2nd term in govt? That’s what Labour should offer, they need a chance to improve on the tory govt.
The line of thought the SNP would disappear on independence is exactly my thought. It’s what generally happens when a party stands on a single issue, UKIP and the Brexit party being recent examples.
wulbert
pfm Member
It is as if, somehow, the SNP and Sturgeon are being interviewed for a job as "Rulers of Scotland for All Time". That is not what is happening.
The question in front of us is "Should Scotland be an Independent Country?" That's it.
The answer to all the side questions: "But, what would you do about....this, that and the other?" is simple: "Same as any other independent country." We'd sort it out to the best of our ability, with varying levels of cooperation and goodwill from neighbouring countries. Some things will go wrong. Some will go well. Mistakes will be made. Heads will roll.
You don't achieve your full potential by allowing your neighbour to make all the important decisions for you and managing your money. For the very simple reason that they are just not as interested in your wellbeing and potential as you are yourself.
The question in front of us is "Should Scotland be an Independent Country?" That's it.
The answer to all the side questions: "But, what would you do about....this, that and the other?" is simple: "Same as any other independent country." We'd sort it out to the best of our ability, with varying levels of cooperation and goodwill from neighbouring countries. Some things will go wrong. Some will go well. Mistakes will be made. Heads will roll.
You don't achieve your full potential by allowing your neighbour to make all the important decisions for you and managing your money. For the very simple reason that they are just not as interested in your wellbeing and potential as you are yourself.