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No bass with Naim

Erm, not quite, m/lud. If you have a 'closed box' room then the lowest pressure mode is actually dc. Hence a speaker that can output very low pressure variations may well give sounds in the room at frequencies well below the 'lowest mode' people normally assume can be produced.

In my main listening room (which isn't very big) I could get a fair bit of output down to about 35Hz even with ESL63s! - admittedly having boosted the drive to them at LF by modding the bass lift of a QUAD 34. Main limit was that I wasn't trying to play overall at trouser-flapping levels.

I did say "freely propagate". Pressure mode is different and you can indeed get deep bass, but it takes much higher levels of power to make it happen (the word attenuated) and it's very hard to actually engineer the transition region.

The experts in the field would be the car audio nerds with their arrays of 12 inch woofers in the boot. Of course you only hear the bass escaping from the sealed box when one goes past.
 
Yes i tried a subwoofer too but always felt that the bass was disconnected with the speakers. I have shahinian arc with built in passive radiators which gives me all the bass i need.
 
Although you say you are happy with the 'Naim sound', perhaps you could try different amplification, give Audionet a dem.
 
It wasn't so much that I felt a lack in the demo room of the pronounced thump that I may be used to with my current speakers - I felt that all of the speakers in the demo room had the same lack of bass that also I hear from my current speakers at home.

My room at home is fairly small : 15ft length x 9ft width with the speakers firing across the width due to necessities of room layout.

If I am understanding correctly, all this listening was done in the dealer’s demo room. As others have said, it seems entirely possible that this is a result of that room.

The only way to know how any of these speakers will behave in your room is to listen to them in your room. Thus, I would suggest seeing if you can borrow whichever of the speakers that you listened to and liked best so you can hear them in your room.

Since you are on record during the demo expressing reservations about the lack of bass, hopefully the dealer would agree.
 
You can never really get an accurate domo at a dealer anyway with a room full of other speaker drivers vibrating along with the music whilst also slightly lagging. ...Does anyone do single speaker dems anymore?
 
My friends often asked me where the bass was for the first 20 years of my Naim stuff.
I then went active with a modded Ixo and 2 x 250s and the difference was night and day.
In saying that, my current ATC stuff is in a different league.
 
Although you say you are happy with the 'Naim sound', perhaps you could try different amplification, give Audionet a dem.

I'm not sure where to start with Audionet as I don't know their product range, plus I feel I might be opening up another can of worms by straying away from Naim when in general I like the sound other than this bass issue.

If I am understanding correctly, all this listening was done in the dealer’s demo room. As others have said, it seems entirely possible that this is a result of that room.

The only way to know how any of these speakers will behave in your room is to listen to them in your room. Thus, I would suggest seeing if you can borrow whichever of the speakers that you listened to and liked best so you can hear them in your room.

Since you are on record during the demo expressing reservations about the lack of bass, hopefully the dealer would agree.

I listened to the four pairs of speakers one after each other in the demo room, but also borrowed one of the pairs for a home demo. What struck me was that I heard the same issue both at home and in the demo room. It's possible that both my room and the demo room have the same issue but that seemed less likely to me.

The dealer left me to listen on my own and so didn't really have an opinion on the sound except for saying that no other customers had mentioned a lack of bass during other demos with similar kit.
 
Was gonna say about positioning in-room, it's surprising how enormous the effect of this can be. When I was running my Celestion A3s where I wanted them I had, if anything, a little more bass than was desirable. I picked up a pair of lovely Kef Ref 3.2s but before going to the effort of moving nearly 100kg-worth of A3s (they're 46kg each!) I plonked the 3.2s in front of the A3s.

The 3.2s sounded like stand-mounts rather than large floorstanders, such was the lack of bass and I nearly decided not to keep them. However, due diligence and a clear afternoon lead me to the bother of putting them where they should be (ie. about half a metre back and close to the rear wall) and the sound transformed. If anything the old 'bass-head' in me still wants a little more but listening properly shows that I've actually got a nicely balanced overall sound with the 3.2s.
 
To avoid going round the houses too much here, I’d strongly recommend getting your room analysed - REW is the thing. Otherwise you’ll just keep getting loads of different opinions and none of us actually know your room, even though a small room having issues with bass is hardly unusual and people are being as helpful as they can. If it is the case that it’s the room and you can’t fix it because of door or required furniture positions, then at least you’ll know and be able to stop worrying about it.
 
Try not using a "budget" integrated like the naits, a 72/140 will knock the pants off it and you should not lack a full sound with some of the speakers that you listened to.
Rgds
Stuart
 
There are lots of speaker options worth considering that should not be bass-light with NDX2/ SN3. Try the astonishing and tiny Neat Xplorers, in your range in you buy ex-dem, and perhaps Fyne 501 SP. Explorers can go closer to walls than many more mainstream designs, which may help.

More important, I'd suggest hearing a few options and then hitting eBay, where amazing value is on offer. Linn Isobariks and Tannoy Stirlings are in your price range now (though they may not suit your amplification), along with loads of more conventional big box options.
 
To avoid going round the houses too much here, I’d strongly recommend getting your room analysed - REW is the thing. Otherwise you’ll just keep getting loads of different opinions and none of us actually know your room, even though a small room having issues with bass is hardly unusual and people are being as helpful as they can. If it is the case that it’s the room and you can’t fix it because of door or required furniture positions, then at least you’ll know and be able to stop worrying about it.
As above
Also don’t be afraid of trying alternative amplification.
 
I did borrow a Rel T7X subwoofer from the dealer to try at home. It definately added low end bass but I felt that there was a gap between where the bass finished from the Sonus Fabers and where the bass started from the subwoofer so it didn't really sound natural.
It sounds like you're missing the mid-bass part of the audio spectrum. This is between 50-100Hz, and critically important for perceived weight or gravitas of music. This is most likely a room effect, which you should be able to measure with REW or even a simple SPL meter and a frequency sweep.

Coincidentally, I bought Naim amps to overcome a degree of bass-shyness in my previous house. The Sonus Faber Concertos I ran had no problem reproducing notes down to 40Hz, but when I measured their in-room response, I had a 18dB suck-out centred at 80Hz. I found the AWOL midbass in the room below.

Sometimes, only a change of room will fix the problem.
 
There are lots of speaker options worth considering that should not be bass-light with NDX2/ SN3. Try the astonishing and tiny Neat Xplorers, in your range in you buy ex-dem, and perhaps Fyne 501 SP. Explorers can go closer to walls than many more mainstream designs, which may help.

More important, I'd suggest hearing a few options and then hitting eBay, where amazing value is on offer. Linn Isobariks and Tannoy Stirlings are in your price range now (though they may not suit your amplification), along with loads of more conventional big box options.
+1 for the Neat speakers with an isobaric arrangement firing down.
Perfect match with Naim and bass problems or deficiencies solved.
 
Try not using a "budget" integrated like the naits, a 72/140 will knock the pants off it and you should not lack a full sound with some of the speakers that you listened to.
Rgds
Stuart

That combo is superb!..... Failing that ProAc loudspeakers generally have an ample bottom, go well with Naim and are as musical as can be.


Good luck.:)
 
Lots and lots of theories and subjectcivity about integrating subs, I use a 10x10HD miniDSP to integrate 4 subs, you can measure delays and the integration of subs in different locations. I add the subs in parallel so the main signal goes direct from pre amp and in parallel to the mini-DSP, which only operate to 100 Hz all are rolling off by 65 Hz, the 18 by 42Hz

If it helps, its 'easy' to integrate and align the subs with enough readings and focussing on a range of frequencies for the alignment and locations so you pick a good compromise (By definition, its only perfect for one frequency and one location). A lot of bad experiences with badly integrated subs and the old view that subs just boom, its like saying I hate high frequencies they are too shrill. If you have a poor sub in a poor location it will sound bad, if you have a poor metal dome tweeter and place it next to a reflective wall it will sound horrible....

My learnings :

  1. Start with getting the 'sub' pack working as one across a wide seating area. Blending and understanding nodes
  2. Avoid as much as possible gain, limit to 3db max
  3. Try different frequencies for alignment with the fronts, I like 30-40Hz
  4. Roll off subs only dont roll on, I dot like how it sounds the rolling on
  5. Harmon is probably right 5+db gain below 80Hz so you have a bass lift
  6. Going below 20 Hz can really help, it adds weight and substance and also seems to improve a sense of realism and 'in the room' feeling - you dont hear it directly
  7. Graphs and accuracy is a good start but listen and tweak by ear
  8. Nothing different about bass - amplifiers, cables, speakers, cabinets and internal wadding all matter (sometimes less than in the mids/highs, but the idea its only ass is wrong)
  9. High damping factor is a good thing with amps and subs
 
One man's 'too much bass' is another's lean.

If you like the sound of your current speakers why not try a good, fast subwoofer (or two)?

You only have to watch Pursuit Perfect System to see that he, as an example, loves bass. Most floorstanders don't have enough (for him).

I'd personally start with something like Kef's KC62 or an SVS micro 3000 and it's superb remote adjustability. Both are small, unobtrusive and reportedly fast. Get two of either one for around £2000.

Quite a few advantages in using subwoofers.
 
@ajm: Have you checked the speaker cables, rather their polarity? I once had a similar issue until it turned out that the dealer installing system at home had inverted one channel ...
 


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