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LP12 Stick or Twist?

@Mr Pig - I think we agree that a Planar 3 is all many need, if they want a turntable at all. It sounded great in the 1980s and has improved since.

I'd also agree with you that a new Majik-level LP12 is not a great value-for-money option. However, since @taffyboy1 has an old LP12 now (with a low current market value but lots of upgrade room), the cost of a new LP12 isn't really the point. Selling the LP12 and buying a new RP8 would cost very roughly £1K net.

The arm is good and I assume for now that the PSU is comparable with Armageddon or Lingo 1. A non-new Cirkus would cut the Linn 'bloom' dramatically for less than £200 (or 5 X that for the considerably better Karousel). A new Core sub-chassis is nearly £1K but they do turn up second-hand and well-reviewed alternatives from (say) Stack are a lot cheaper, ditto improved base boards and arm boards. The result isn't Akkurate-level, but it is not a million miles away, and I'd be surprised if it didn't please an existing LP12 owner (who presumably doesn't hate what it does) more than the RP8 can do.

In any event, as @Andy Stephenson and others have said, going to a dealer and having a listen will be a better guide on what to do than reading waffle from me.
 
I'd rather you didn't make assumptions about my motivations. I used the LP12 for over thirty years and decided to sell it in ten minutes when I had something I thought was better. Turned out I was wrong but I dropped Naim after twenty years and was right about that. I use what plays music the best and what's in my budget.



Tricky to explain.

Imagine you're at a small local blues gig, standing near the front. Band are really good and you're getting totally lost in the music. Now, most of what you are hearing is coming through a PA, and maybe it's a good PA but totally uncoloured it ain't. Let's say the vocals are a bit pinched and nasally, bass isn't as tight as it could be and room issues are causing a bit of boom.

But you are in zero doubt that you're hearing great live music as, apart from the fact you can see them, the playing is tight, punchy and sounds like real people playing real instruments. Vocals cut and soar and you can feel the bass in the floor.

For me, the job of a Hi-Fi system is to convince you that you are listening to real musicians playing real music. It's not about an absolute lack of colouration or maximum detail, it's about the illusion that you are hearing live music and not a recording. There is a balance there and if it is tipped enough in the right way, you're gone. It's not a stereo system anymore, it's just you listening to the band.

My system does that. I'd describe it as sounding like a very good PA. Yes, it has colouration but it puts people in the room. The RP10 doesn't. OK, with very good recordings it's not bad but most records sound..like you're listening to a record. It's so clean and clear, so stripped bare, that there is no body to the sound. A P-bass sounds like a very clear cardboard cut-out of a P-bass, but you don't feel that weight and power. Singers sound clear and detailed but they don't sound, real. Hollow, they have no substance.

The LP12 has much more realistic weight and tonality to the sound. Of course if your system has been chosen for lack of colouration and maximum detail without attention towards realistic tonality or lack of artifacts that sound wrong it might not sound like real music no matter what the front end is. Many systems sound ok at low volume but as soon as they're loud enough to actually hear what they're doing the illusion is lost. The LP12 sounds like real people playing real music, for all it's faults. Of course it does have to be working right! Well matched, set up properly and yeah, that isn't a given. It's a chore I could live without but the rewards are worth it.

The other aspect of the RP10 I couldn't accept was more to do with musical integration. Music flows and hangs together better on the LP12. I'm sure it has to do with the presentation of micro-timing information. Reggatta de Blank is one of my all time favorite albums and the playing on it is stunning. The band are so tight and Stuart Copland's playing is amazing. Loads of subtle timing shifts and accents which change a tiny bit with each bar. It's just wonderful. On the RP10, while the macro timing and dynamics are great, it just does not hook you up to the subtlety of his playing in the way the LP12 does. You're impressed, but on the Linn you're captivated, enthralled and in love. I've never been able to listen to this album on CD for the same reason. Too much is missing.

The overall effect is that the LP12 connects you to the artists more effectively. You're impressed with the Hi-Fi on the Rega, you're in love with the music on the Linn. There is a reason people are still buying, upgrading and loving this deck after fifty years. It's got something special going for it.

I disagree with the assertion that the Rega is more even handed. Sure, the Linn can favor some records over others but it's a matching issue and not inherent to the deck itself. Mainly down to Linn tonearms actually but get it right and they play anything. The RP10 is too analytical and if a recording is bad you can hear it clearly enough to stop you enjoying it. Technically, the Rega is a more accurate record player but I really don't care.

Also, the argument that 'Ah, but that's the RP10, the P10 is different'. The P10 is just a development of the RP10, which is a development of the same philosophies found the P9. They have the same family sound and the same issues apply. I was hearing the same sorts of objections to the P9 years ago and the same is true of the P10 today. I know of a very good dealer who won't stock the 'plastic' Rega turntables because they sound wrong. My local Linn/Rega dealer sells the top Rega decks but tellingly, none of the guys who work there use one. All use LP12s.

Plus, you can swaps bits on the Linn until it sounds exactly the way you want. I'm not a fan of the way Linn have gone and have little interest in the majority of their crazily overpriced products but the LP12 is a fechin good record player. I love Rega, great products, great value and fantastic people but they lose this fight.

I'd go with that, but I'd add that everything I've fitted a Rega arm to has also had the soul sucked out of it so I won't even have their arms either. Controversial probably but I can only go on experience.
 
Why has Taff's post turned into a Rega vs Linn debate?
He asked what decks were around in a Rega type budget. no wonder the bloke has run off, with the usual fanbases gathered on the terraces hurling (as this is PFM) empty cans of diet pepsi at each other ;)
At least Technics normally creeps in, but can we remember that there are 100 other makes at all budget levels around?

Here's a question for the fanboys
Visit a HiFi show (commercial or amateur, like the Wam show)and count how many rooms are using either Linn or Rega decks to demo their kit?
hmmmm. Get it now?
Other makers are available.

and
better.
 
Why has Taff's post turned into a Rega vs Linn debate?
He asked what decks were around in a Rega type budget. no wonder the bloke has run off, with the usual fanbases gathered on the terraces hurling (as this is PFM) empty cans of diet pepsi at each other ;)
At least Technics normally creeps in, but can we remember that there are 100 other makes at all budget levels around?

Here's a question for the fanboys
Visit a HiFi show (commercial or amateur, like the Wam show)and count how many rooms are using either Linn or Rega decks to demo their kit?
hmmmm. Get it now?
Other makers are available.

and
better.

But that's what he asked about, Linn vs Rega!
 
I'd go with that, but I'd add that everything I've fitted a Rega arm to has also had the soul sucked out of it so I won't even have their arms either.

Na, it's just a question of balance. The arms are fine. I have two LP12s, one with an RB3000 and one with an RB303 and they both sound great.
 
I had a 80s Rega 3, had a late 80s LP12, added the whole Pink Triangle power supply and top plate package and I enjoyed it but as someone neatly put it earlier I bought hundreds of albums in pursuit of the "wow" tracks or albums. Then a few years ago I spent circa £250 having it serviced with new belt, springs etc by Peter at Cymbios and whilst it obviously sounded better when I started to work out the cost of next round of upgrades I became mildly angry because as an ex development engineer I couldn't square the prices Linn were charging. I sold the LP12, bought a new P8 with an Apheta 2. It was different without being better, a change to an Apheta 3 made a significant difference. At this point I felt I was moving in the right direction. I have made a few more mods each making subtle improvements but the biggest improvement has come through a upgrade to the Apheta and "forensic" approach to the cartridge set up using test disks, software and associated kit.I wouldn't want to guess where my tweaked P8 stacks up against other good TTs but I would guess pound for pound it would be doing well.
My next TT move is to see if I prefer a well sorted DD TT as I can hear a difference and I want to find out if I prefer it. Time will tell
 
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Alternative view to prevent this thread becoming an LP12 vs Rega war

Buy a 2nd hand Pink Triangle PT1 for about £500, get it serviced by True Point, Doug Brady’s or Funk Firm. Transfer the Ittok over and fit cartridge of choice. One of the best sounding decks ever made and incredible value.

They actually sound a bit like a cross between a Rega and a Linn, only better :)
 
..when I started to work out the cost of next round of upgrades I became mildly angry because as an ex development engineer I couldn't square the prices Linn were charging.

It's crazy, Linn sheep don't bat an eye and it never gets any better. They've just released three new products. One is a rebadged Audio Technica OC9XML with a £300 price premium, 50% more than the AT version. The other is a new arm costing three grand. It basically looks like a glorified Akito, is static balance and the arm rest pillar is made of plastic. Plastic! £3,000, what the heck?

I have some Stack Audio bits in my decks and Rega arms as Linn upgrade prices are just a piss-take.
 
Turntable owners need to ask themselves a few simple questions:

Does your current turntable motivate you to buy more vinyl?
Do you find yourself sitting down and listening directly to the musical playback experience?
Do you drop the needle on the first track of an LP and listen to whole album sides?
Do you find yourself loosing track of time because you get lost in the music, pretty much any music?
Does your TT help you discover more types of music and does your TT help you make more sense of the music?

Or:

Has listening to your system become mainly for backround?
Do you find that you primarily listen to the same choice tracks on the same 35 records?
Do you find that you're getting fatigued after a half hour and want to move onto doing something else?
Do complex arrangements such as Jazz not make much sense musically to you?
Do you continually make/want to make "improvements" to your turntable, then continue with the same 35 records?

Well, the P10 in my personal experience has now brought me solidly into the top category where as my LP12 has been quietly & subliminally pushing me more and more into the lower category over the past 20 years, but not knowing any better I just assumed that the LP12 was the best that the medium had to offer, and until the P10 came along I accepted that the LP12 was the best. But simply stated the P8-P10 are game changers and now the LP12 along with all it's countless BandAids over the years is the one playing catch up.
 
We seem to be getting ever-further from the original question about upgrading an LP12 or swapping to a P8, and moving toward general abuse, which is probably not that useful.

FWIW, my LP12 has had several Linn upgrades over the last c.30 years, including a new Karousel and a definitely not new Lingo 4 in the last 2 years. Being told that this makes me demonstrably daft or deaf does not change what my ears (and those of others, including musicians) tell me, or mean that I will have a revelation and stop judging with my ears.

I think many buyers of Stack's highly-regarded and well-priced bits will have assessed them in the same way that I assessed whether my LP12 justified paying £260 when I was a poor recently-ex-student, or whether to disobey Linn's advice and put a slab of granite underneath it and HRS' not-quite-a-record-clamp on top of it - we used ears. I did the same when deciding not to buy a Keel, a Urika or their phono stages. If (say) that new arm/ cartridge is as over-priced as first sight suggests, then sales won't be zero, but they won't be letting Ivor buy an Lear jet either.

I am not sure why any of this makes so many on this site so angry.
 
..my LP12 has had several Linn upgrades over the last c.30 years, including a new Karousel and a definitely not new Lingo 4 in the last 2 years.

What did you think of the Lingo4? It's hard to get a firm impression on it, a lot of people seem to have fitted them at the same time as other upgrades. I like the idea of it but do balk at the price.
 
We seem to be getting ever-further from the original question about upgrading an LP12 or swapping to a P8, and moving toward general abuse, which is probably not that useful.

FWIW, my LP12 has had several Linn upgrades over the last c.30 years, including a new Karousel and a definitely not new Lingo 4 in the last 2 years. Being told that this makes me demonstrably daft or deaf does not change what my ears (and those of others, including musicians) tell me, or mean that I will have a revelation and stop judging with my ears.

I think many buyers of Stack's highly-regarded and well-priced bits will have assessed them in the same way that I assessed whether my LP12 justified paying £260 when I was a poor recently-ex-student, or whether to disobey Linn's advice and put a slab of granite underneath it and HRS' not-quite-a-record-clamp on top of it - we used ears. I did the same when deciding not to buy a Keel, a Urika or their phono stages. If (say) that new arm/ cartridge is as over-priced as first sight suggests, then sales won't be zero, but they won't be letting Ivor buy an Lear jet either.

I am not sure why any of this makes so many on this site so angry.
Where’s that anger?
 
Turntable owners need to ask themselves a few simple questions:

Does your current turntable motivate you to buy more vinyl?
Do you find yourself sitting down and listening directly to the musical playback experience?
Do you drop the needle on the first track of an LP and listen to whole album sides?
Do you find yourself loosing track of time because you get lost in the music, pretty much any music?
Does your TT help you discover more types of music and does your TT help you make more sense of the music?

Or:

Has listening to your system become mainly for backround?
Do you find that you primarily listen to the same choice tracks on the same 35 records?
Do you find that you're getting fatigued after a half hour and want to move onto doing something else?
Do complex arrangements such as Jazz not make much sense musically to you?
Do you continually want to make "improvements" to your turntable?

Well, the P10 in my personal experience has now brought me solidly into the top category where as my LP12 has been quietly & subliminally pushing me more and more into the lower category over the past 20 years, but not knowing any better I just assumed that the LP12 was the best that the medium had to offer, and until the P10 came along I accepted that the LP12 was the best. But simply stated the P8-P10 are game changers and now the LP12 along with all it's countless BandAids over the years is the one playing catch up.

I’d say I would answer yes to all your first set of questions from the time I first purchased my Valhalla/Ittok LP12 back in 1985. I’ve gotten much enjoyment from it over the years and have upgraded to Lingo, Cirkus, Ekos2 using Linn Karma, Troika, Klyde, Asaka. When the Keel came out I think it was a crossroad for many Linn owners who could not justify the cost to keep their LP12 top of the line. We saw many “move on” to Rega P9, older Garrards, Well Tempered, etc…

There was no way I was going to shell out $3,600 for a Keel but was happy to spend $875 for a Greenstreet Keel Klone. When Tiger Paw introduced the Khan top plate I was open to trying one of those as well for the $800 or so asking price. Both products to me were a significant upgrade and had me revisiting my record collection.

I enjoy playing records with the LP12 and something like a P10 though it might sound good just does not interest me. I’m glad I held off purchasing the Ekos after the Mk2 version came out. I don’t see myself doing much else other than maintaining what I have as I’ve always thought of my hi-fi as a means to an end.
 
I was unconvinced by Lingo 2 & 3 when I heard them. I also thought the Lingo 1 better (but not staggeringly better) than the old inboard version. Lingo 4 is annoying because it takes time to decide the speed is right.

I too did both together. The combination certainly tightens bass, opens soundstage a bit more, lowers minimum noise levels so I can hear more and encourages the volume to creep up if one is feeling enthusiastic. Harmonica, female voice and violin are all better, and one of the intangibles (to me) was explained by someone with better ears as better control of notes starting and stopping. If I think of what I like about a good digital stream and disliked about a 1980 LP12, my LP12 now gives more of that, but with no loss of air, realistic voice or boogie.

Attribution of benefit between the two changes is only indirect and vague because I changed bearing and PS together. From LP12s I have heard with & without Karousels, and others that I previously heard with and without Lingo 4s, the bearing probably makes more difference (including making the LP12 sound less like its 1980s ancestors) than the Lingo 4 does. Both definitely contribute, and the combination was enough make me live on digital music only while my LP12 was away (hardly a great hardship).

Lingo 4s turn up second-hand as LP12 owners trade up - that's how I bought mine, and that makes a difference to one feels about VFM given the new price.

I have sympathy with @tpetsch list above. For me my LP12 is firmly in the first category. Prior to this year, it had had only cartridge changes since the Core in 2002. I have played a lot of records since then.

I am probably easier to pigeon-hole as a Naim-ite than a Linn sheep anyway.

Conventional Naim wisdom has it that in pre-amps one goes 72 to 82 (with a Hicap PS) to 82 (with a supercap PS) to 52 (with supercap). Over rather over 30 years, I did just that.

The same conventional trail has a 140 power amp becoming a 250, and then stopping for 90%+ of people - I did that too in 1991.

We are also supposed to obsessively add power supplies to just about everything. I have a separate Hicap PS for my phono stage. I even bought one for my NDX2 streamer (it made a big difference, so that streams beat CDs pretty often, which was not true before).

My only defence is that I did not know the conventions. All of these were done with gritted teeth/ wallet, but driven by whether I could hear and enjoy music better, and whether the margin justified the cost (or was so tiny that you'd never notice unless making a big effort). From your posts, I suspect that you decide what to buy in a similar way, no?
 
Alternative view to prevent this thread becoming an LP12 vs Rega war

Buy a 2nd hand Pink Triangle PT1 for about £500, get it serviced by True Point, Doug Brady’s or Funk Firm. Transfer the Ittok over and fit cartridge of choice. One of the best sounding decks ever made and incredible value.

They actually sound a bit like a cross between a Rega and a Linn, only better :)


Good posting.:)
 


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