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LP12 Stick or Twist?

We may need to remember that that @tpetsch has an LP12. For the extra cost of (say) the P8 or P10 mentioned, that old LP12 could get a lot of upgrades, perhaps a sub-chassis and a Karousel bearing and a base board and a Lingo and a (presumably non-Linn and perhaps non-new) phono stage and a new cartridge too.

@Mynamemynaim and @Tim Jones will probably still like the sound of a P8 more, and I can understand why, but on a sound-per-£ test the LP12 upgrade may well make more sense. a bit of listening will probably answer that better than we can on this site.
 
Unfortunately, a short dem doesn't really work.

When I first got the RP10 I decided to sell the LP12 after about ten minutes. The Rega was less coloured, more detailed, had better speed stability and had less background noise. Technically is was so clearly better I figured it had to stay. I knew there was something not quite right with the sound, hard to put your finger on it, but I thought probably just a case of finding the right cartridge or other small tweaks and it would be fine.

Two years of fighting with it and it wasn't fine. I figured out what the Rega was doing wrong and you couldn't fix it. Built another LP12 and will not be getting rid of it again. It does sound a bit better than my last one but technically as good as the Rega? I couldn't care less. You feel genuine love for the music, record after record, and that's what I want my stereo to do. It's what the LP12 has always done, if you get it right.

After I mentioned the new Rega "P"8 & "P"10 you continue to go on to compare the now 10 year old & discontinued "RP"10 to the LP12, but even though it's still enlightening that you then went on to say how the "The Rega -"RP"10- was less coloured, more detailed, had better speed stability and had less background noise" than the LP12. Then you go on to say that "I figured out what the Rega was doing wrong and you couldn't fix it".


...
Well, Rega did fix it and it's simply called the "P"10 now, they dropped the "R" and besides the platter the P10 shares basically nothing with the older RP10. But I agree with you about the older Rega "RP's", I had an "RP"8 for a few weeks myself several years back and I too thought that these new clean sheet design Regas were really onto something, the RP8 for me was nearly as satisfying as my LP12, doing many things better, but on average not all around better for me to give up on the LP12 just yet as I still didn't know at the time about the LP12's inherent fundamental coloration flaws that Linn too is now starting to address. Looking back, the RP8 in retrospect was a slightly out of focus lens that started to reveal to me the issues of the LP12 but it still didn't yet *Click* in my brain, and after the RP8 left the house the LP12 was becoming somewhat more fatiguing to listen to, the RP8 definitely planted a seed in my subconscious.

Fast forward to a year an a half ago, my buddy picks up a the completely new "P"10 -again, not to be confused with the discontinued "RP"10- and tells me "you need to listen to this", so I go over to give it a listen and I'm just blown away, I had no idea LP's could sound so uncolored and musical/In Tune, the P10 was seemingly an all around better tool to help the listener get a more accurate window into what it must be like to listen to the actual master tape. I don't really like using this analogy, but my thought at the time was that it sounded more like listening to a very high quality CD player but without any of the drawbacks of Digital, the music just flowed, I couldn't believe I was listening to a record player.

After getting home that same evening while the experience was still fresh in my mind I listened my LP12 to try and gain some clarity into what had just happened and after an hour or so -and now years later- I came to the conclusion that the LP12 had always been severely colored, engulfing the music with an artificial weight wafting over every track of every piece of music played upon it. I just never had a piece of gear before such as the P10 that so clearly unveiled the flaws of another piece of gear. For me the LP12 for 35 over years was always the best turntable that I have ever heard, there was nothing more musical or more in tune, and then the P10 came along and told me what was always wrong with the Lp12, so long story short I bought a P10 soon after and a year and a half later I'm still not looking back. I find myself just playing whole album sides now on pretty much every record, even rediscovering older records I've given up on, the P10 even helps make more sense all of those, what I thought were throw away/filler tracks, I just needed a better tool to make sense of them.
 
^Good post, except Mr Pig seems to have you on ignore & won’t read it. Anyway, I feel that once his mind’s made up about hi-fi, it takes a great deal for him to change it. He also has a special affection for & investment in the LP12.
 
That's a great post...and goes a long way to explaining why some people still confuse the "RP" and the "P" model's and may be a little stuck in the past with their thinking

I have to admit that on a few albums , a Linn Lp12 (in good spec, with one of their better arms ...or an Aro...and all set up correctly!!!) DOES sound amazing. There is just a magikal (sic) quality that makes you know why people have fallen in love with them over the years

But the magic (for me at least) doesn't last
The next album can sound flat and lifeless or just coloured in completely the wrong way. And this ultimately is what made the 12 a product that was not enjoyable for long term ownership

With a Linn .. it seemed you were always chasing that "magic moment " ...if I put this part on it..or change that component for the latest one....or get the "guru" to set it up....THEN I will be happy

A Rega P6 or P8 /P10 just works .. out the box...magnificently...no extra parts or guru's required thank you, and all at less than the price of a sub chassis from Linn

P.s.
@Durmbo
I hope that helps a little
 
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Unfortunately, a short dem doesn't really work.

When I first got the RP10 I decided to sell the LP12 after about ten minutes. The Rega was less coloured, more detailed, had better speed stability and had less background noise. Technically is was so clearly better I figured it had to stay. I knew there was something not quite right with the sound, hard to put your finger on it, but I thought probably just a case of finding the right cartridge or other small tweaks and it would be fine.

Two years of fighting with it and it wasn't fine. I figured out what the Rega was doing wrong and you couldn't fix it. Built another LP12 and will not be getting rid of it again. It does sound a bit better than my last one but technically as good as the Rega? I couldn't care less. You feel genuine love for the music, record after record, and that's what I want my stereo to do. It's what the LP12 has always done, if you get it right.


Agree- sometimes 'better sound' does not bring more enjoyment. :)
 
Unfortunately, a short dem doesn't really work.

When I first got the RP10 I decided to sell the LP12 after about ten minutes. The Rega was less coloured, more detailed, had better speed stability and had less background noise. Technically is was so clearly better I figured it had to stay. I knew there was something not quite right with the sound, hard to put your finger on it, but I thought probably just a case of finding the right cartridge or other small tweaks and it would be fine.

Two years of fighting with it and it wasn't fine. I figured out what the Rega was doing wrong and you couldn't fix it. Built another LP12 and will not be getting rid of it again. It does sound a bit better than my last one but technically as good as the Rega? I couldn't care less. You feel genuine love for the music, record after record, and that's what I want my stereo to do. It's what the LP12 has always done, if you get it right.

So, what was Rega doing wrong? I'm genuinely interested.

Likewise. There were a significant number who were convinced by the P9 (especially the second RB1000 version) in the 2000s to drop the LP12/

Much as I think the LP12 has some virtues, for all the cottage industry and Linn's own efforts to correct the deck's downsides, the three point suspension and its engineering compromises remain.

What are those compromises? A genuine question, as TT design fascinates me.
 
That's a great post...and goes a long way to explaining why some people still confuse the "RP" and the "P" model's and may be a little stuck in the past with their thinking

I have to admit that on a few albums , a Linn Lp12 (in good spec, with one of their better arms ...or an Aro...and all set up correctly!!!) DOES sound amazing. There is just a magikal (sic) quality that makes you know why people have fallen in love with them over the years

But the magic (for me at least) doesn't last
The next album can sound flat and lifeless or just coloured in completely the wrong way. And this ultimately is what made the 12 a product that was not enjoyable for long term ownership

With a Linn .. it seemed you were always chasing that "magic moment " ...if I put this part on it..or change that component for the latest one....or get the "guru" to set it up....THEN I will be happy

A Rega P6 or P8 /P10 just work .. out the box...magnificently...no extra parts or guru's required thank you, and all at less than the price of a sub chassis from Linn

P.s.
@Durmbo
I hope that helps a little
Awesome explanation, really appreciated. Mr Pig has in the past mentioned his inconsistent enjoyment with the LP12, only without being as specific.

Every now & then an LP12 comes up for sale locally, & my curiosity is piqued. There's one up now with an RB300. I think I'll let it slide because I love my Rega & prefer the much simpler Rega design philosophy. Thanks again. :)
 
I do think people make very exaggerated claims when it comes to colouration & neutrality. A lot of these attributes can just as easily be a result of speakers/amps.

I think the LP12 has a certain weight & bounciness to its sound which I quite like. I do listen mostly to digital these days, why anyone would want a TT to sound more digital is beyond me. If you want something to sound digital, then, the answer is pretty obvious.
 
For pity's sake are you lot still arguing about Regas and the Linn fruit box... just get a Gyrodec, even if you don't like the sound of it it is a design classic and you can marvel that those gorgeous spinning weights while you stick your fingers in your ears :D
 
That's a great post...and goes a long way to explaining why some people still confuse the "RP" and the "P" model's and may be a little stuck in the past with their thinking

I have to admit that on a few albums , a Linn Lp12 (in good spec, with one of their better arms ...or an Aro...and all set up correctly!!!) DOES sound amazing. There is just a magikal (sic) quality that makes you know why people have fallen in love with them over the years

But the magic (for me at least) doesn't last
The next album can sound flat and lifeless or just coloured in completely the wrong way. And this ultimately is what made the 12 a product that was not enjoyable for long term ownership

With a Linn .. it seemed you were always chasing that "magic moment " ...if I put this part on it..or change that component for the latest one....or get the "guru" to set it up....THEN I will be happy

A Rega P6 or P8 /P10 just work .. out the box...magnificently...no extra parts or guru's required thank you, and all at less than the price of a sub chassis from Linn

P.s.
@Durmbo
I hope that helps a little

This is exactly my experience. I’m not a LP12 knocker, I really enjoyed the whole thing. Bought a Valhalla/Ittock and kept it for years ending with it at Ekos 2, circus, lingo 2, Akiva on a Mana reference. When I changed to the GTa that urge to put a record on that sounded great stopped and I put on what I wanted to listen to. I really need to sell ‘On The Beach’, I haven’t played it since the WT arrived. Then again, perhaps I need to put it on, I’ve never really listened to it.
I’ve got a Technics Anniversary on the way which I’m going to use alongside the WT if I like it enough I may go to the Technics G as my final turntable.
 
An LP12 may be less romantic with a better bearing, but I reckon you hear more music. However, I'd be tempted to agree with @Mr Pig about a Cirkus for a different reason. If you want to replace the excess warmth with accuracy, the Karousel is a big help, so I'd suggest you either keep your bearing (if you really want to keep what it does) or go straight to Karousel.

I have not heard the Stack audio sub-chassis but it does look to offer great value for money in another area where an old LP12 really needs it (at least to my ear).

Only trouble with the Karousel is it costs more than I paid for the whole deck, it is the price of the used cirkus kits around that has me considering it.
 
I feel that once his mind’s made up about hi-fi, it takes a great deal for him to change it. He also has a special affection for & investment in the LP12.

I'd rather you didn't make assumptions about my motivations. I used the LP12 for over thirty years and decided to sell it in ten minutes when I had something I thought was better. Turned out I was wrong but I dropped Naim after twenty years and was right about that. I use what plays music the best and what's in my budget.

So, what was Rega doing wrong? I'm genuinely interested.

Tricky to explain.

Imagine you're at a small local blues gig, standing near the front. Band are really good and you're getting totally lost in the music. Now, most of what you are hearing is coming through a PA, and maybe it's a good PA but totally uncoloured it ain't. Let's say the vocals are a bit pinched and nasally, bass isn't as tight as it could be and room issues are causing a bit of boom.

But you are in zero doubt that you're hearing great live music as, apart from the fact you can see them, the playing is tight, punchy and sounds like real people playing real instruments. Vocals cut and soar and you can feel the bass in the floor.

For me, the job of a Hi-Fi system is to convince you that you are listening to real musicians playing real music. It's not about an absolute lack of colouration or maximum detail, it's about the illusion that you are hearing live music and not a recording. There is a balance there and if it is tipped enough in the right way, you're gone. It's not a stereo system anymore, it's just you listening to the band.

My system does that. I'd describe it as sounding like a very good PA. Yes, it has colouration but it puts people in the room. The RP10 doesn't. OK, with very good recordings it's not bad but most records sound..like you're listening to a record. It's so clean and clear, so stripped bare, that there is no body to the sound. A P-bass sounds like a very clear cardboard cut-out of a P-bass, but you don't feel that weight and power. Singers sound clear and detailed but they don't sound, real. Hollow, they have no substance.

The LP12 has much more realistic weight and tonality to the sound. Of course if your system has been chosen for lack of colouration and maximum detail without attention towards realistic tonality or lack of artifacts that sound wrong it might not sound like real music no matter what the front end is. Many systems sound ok at low volume but as soon as they're loud enough to actually hear what they're doing the illusion is lost. The LP12 sounds like real people playing real music, for all it's faults. Of course it does have to be working right! Well matched, set up properly and yeah, that isn't a given. It's a chore I could live without but the rewards are worth it.

The other aspect of the RP10 I couldn't accept was more to do with musical integration. Music flows and hangs together better on the LP12. I'm sure it has to do with the presentation of micro-timing information. Reggatta de Blank is one of my all time favorite albums and the playing on it is stunning. The band are so tight and Stuart Copland's playing is amazing. Loads of subtle timing shifts and accents which change a tiny bit with each bar. It's just wonderful. On the RP10, while the macro timing and dynamics are great, it just does not hook you up to the subtlety of his playing in the way the LP12 does. You're impressed, but on the Linn you're captivated, enthralled and in love. I've never been able to listen to this album on CD for the same reason. Too much is missing.

The overall effect is that the LP12 connects you to the artists more effectively. You're impressed with the Hi-Fi on the Rega, you're in love with the music on the Linn. There is a reason people are still buying, upgrading and loving this deck after fifty years. It's got something special going for it.

I disagree with the assertion that the Rega is more even handed. Sure, the Linn can favor some records over others but it's a matching issue and not inherent to the deck itself. Mainly down to Linn tonearms actually but get it right and they play anything. The RP10 is too analytical and if a recording is bad you can hear it clearly enough to stop you enjoying it. Technically, the Rega is a more accurate record player but I really don't care.

Also, the argument that 'Ah, but that's the RP10, the P10 is different'. The P10 is just a development of the RP10, which is a development of the same philosophies found the P9. They have the same family sound and the same issues apply. I was hearing the same sorts of objections to the P9 years ago and the same is true of the P10 today. I know of a very good dealer who won't stock the 'plastic' Rega turntables because they sound wrong. My local Linn/Rega dealer sells the top Rega decks but tellingly, none of the guys who work there use one. All use LP12s.

Plus, you can swaps bits on the Linn until it sounds exactly the way you want. I'm not a fan of the way Linn have gone and have little interest in the majority of their crazily overpriced products but the LP12 is a fechin good record player. I love Rega, great products, great value and fantastic people but they lose this fight.
 
Interesting debate. I have a P6 exact and love it but like many want more, not because there is anything wrong with it but curious as to how much better vinyl could sound.. so natural step I think would be a P8 or P10 but I don’t really like the look of them unfortunately and far prefer the look of my P6 which I think looks modern but understated. so on that basis thinking about changing to an lp12 in the new year, however conscious it can be an expensive journey.. not sure if it’s worthwhile upgrading arm and cart on P6 instead? One thing that annoys me a bit about rega is there is no VTA adjustment, would it be possible to add this? As I quite fancy trying a hana ml but seems to be some debate to shim or not.

On the lp12 I think it is a very attractive deck, saw one on fb which is completely black and looks very smart.. also can see the advantages of being able to improve the sound over time, haven’t yet listened to one yet though so looking forward to hearing what it can do.
 
Back in the day I moved from a Planar3 to an LP12 (fluted plinth, Ittok arm and Basik cartridge). The LP12 should have been every thing I'd dreamed of (it was visually) but aurally doubt started to creep in. I wasn't experiencing the quantum leap forward in sound and to my ears it sounded less musical than the out going Planar3 fitted with an Ortofon FF15E. Also I'm a bit ham fisted and felt nervous cueing up with the different feel of the lift/lower mechanism of the Ittok and the wobble of the suspension didn't help either. In the end the LP12 experience wasn't for me and I ended up going back to Rega.
 
@Mr Pig - that's a brilliant explanation of the effect on the listening experience of different turntables. For a lot of listeners 30+ years ago, LP12s got feet tapping (and listening sessions extended and volume turned up and the risk of 'air guitar increased) more than any other turntable, despite being very far from neutral or fault-free. Xerxes and Pink Triangle in particular were close to alternatives with the same priorities, but never had the volume to make infinite upgrade paths a possibility.

The key here though is the '30 years' bit. A P10 does sound cleaner to me than most LP12s and suffers less in the areas where digital beats LP, but the improvements from the first RP10 to a new P10 are tiny compared to the improvements over 30+ years to an LP12. A lot of people here look to be basing their views of an LP12's failings on how a pre-Cirkus, pre-Core/ Keel, pre-Lingo LP12 sounded, which may be misleading today. An LP12 may still be the least 'digital' turntable there is (which is odd, considering how their latest uber-version works), but it is very different from the turntable it was when I was young.

If I didn't have an LP12 today (with Karousel, Core, Ekos, Lingo 4 etc), I would try several alternatives. I'd certainly want to hear a P10 in my system (and ideally room), but I'd also want to hear the Vertere, Avid, Clearaudio and Michell options. I might try Brinkmann, VPI, Nottingham Analogue or Well Tempered too. I could easily imagine listening to 7 or 8 options over a couple of months.

If any of them sounded better overall to me than an LP12, I'd buy them. However, after the all the effort that this would involve (after a theoretical fire/ burglary and insurance claim perhaps), I would not be at all surprised if I ended up buying another LP12. I suspect that many LP12 owners (not all o whom are deaf of daft) would do the same. If you like what they do...
 
If you take your LP12 to a dealer for a service, see if they'll demo a Rega (or whatever) against it, then you can make a more informed decision

Brilliant, that is how I bough my LP 12, brought my TT to the store, listened, bought the LP 12, that was more than 40 years ago, never looked back, had a few upgrades.
 
A P10 does sound cleaner to me than most LP12s and suffers less in the areas where digital beats LP, but the improvements from the first RP10 to a new P10 are tiny compared to the improvements over 30+ years to an LP12.

Maybe, but the current LP12 is not cheap. The entry LP12 with a crappy bought in arm and really basic power supply cost as much as the P10 with the lovely RB3000 and sophisticated 24v outboard PSU. Don't get me wrong, I think the Linn sounds inherently better but it's not very fair to compare a P10 to a high spec current LP12. Even if the Linn sounds comprehensively better I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it damn well should.
 
Back in the day I moved from a Planar3 to an LP12.. I wasn't experiencing the quantum leap forward in sound and to my ears it sounded less musical than the out going Planar3

I did the same and felt the same way. It wasn't until the rest of the system was upgraded a bit that the Linn started to make more sense but you're right, the difference is less than you might expect. I've always said that for a lot of people, a Planar3 is as good a record player as they'll ever need.
 


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