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LP12 Stick or Twist?

If you read between the lines of the new LP12 Klimax reviews it talks about Linn remedying the the mid/upper midrange- the past fundamental & inherent LP12 artificial fatness/bloatedness flaws which surround all recordings played back upon them, this has really come to light with the advent of new & uncolored decks such as the P8/P10. I have no doubt that the newer P8/P10 Regas will outperform your 1985 LP12 in all ways, Tune, PraT, long term listening pleasure and hearing playback that is un-colored and accurate to the master, you just need to have an open mind, and not worry about what your friends might think. I have personally owned many LP12s over the past 35 years, and have heard many others at the Linn/Naim shop I used to work at and thought nothing was better. But my P10 over the past year and a half has given me more enjoyment listening to my LP collection than any other deck I have ever heard, I recommend finding a dealer and hearing one for yourself, better if you can bring it home for a week or so and live with it for a little.

People here talk about the RP10 which is a 10 year old design now, give a P8/P10 a listen as they are much more refined decks.
 
Main problem with the P10 is how it looks & how cheap it feels. Sounds OK but nothing amazing.

Despite all that of I was starting again I’d have a proper look at a P8, but, there is just something about an LP12.
 
Before you decide anything, just spend 25 quid on a blue belt for the Alina from Mike Pickwell. I suspect you will be amazed by the difference it makes, especially so coming from where you are, with a Cirkus that never really fulfilled its promise, as was my case. I have never heard a Karousel but I suspect that just this belt will give you a real insight into what it can do at a fraction of the price of a Karousel. Oh and if you do try one, make sure you try it all ways, inside, outside,upside and downside. There Is definitely a CORRECT side which is quite shockingly better, in my case at least.
 
If you take your LP12 to a dealer for a service, see if they'll demo a Rega (or whatever) against it, then you can make a more informed decision.

Unfortunately, a short dem doesn't really work.

When I first got the RP10 I decided to sell the LP12 after about ten minutes. The Rega was less coloured, more detailed, had better speed stability and had less background noise. Technically is was so clearly better I figured it had to stay. I knew there was something not quite right with the sound, hard to put your finger on it, but I thought probably just a case of finding the right cartridge or other small tweaks and it would be fine.

Two years of fighting with it and it wasn't fine. I figured out what the Rega was doing wrong and you couldn't fix it. Built another LP12 and will not be getting rid of it again. It does sound a bit better than my last one but technically as good as the Rega? I couldn't care less. You feel genuine love for the music, record after record, and that's what I want my stereo to do. It's what the LP12 has always done, if you get it right.
 
If you can find a Well Tempered stockist take your deck there and compare. I did that with my Circus/Ekos LP 12 and came out with an Amadeus GTa. Sonically there wasn’t a lot in it but I fancied a change. Over the next couple of weeks I realised what the difference was. The WT was more neutral and I found myself enjoying records that would irritate me on the LP12. The WT irritates me because of the string and gloop thing but in 6 years nothing has actually gone wrong, I just think it might. Then again Pear Audio is not far away and I guess they would do a re-string and gloop change if ever I need it.
 
There's also Ceritech audio in Gloucester... [email protected]

Also Analogue innovation in west Wales, still trading (semi retired) they offer money back if you're not satisfied with your set up before you leave their premises... [email protected]
 
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I was always surprised at how long Linn spent leaving much of the LP12 upgrade market to a whole ecosystem of third party suppliers and modifiers though I know every business has to focus on its core capabilities and markets. Interesting to see their website today:

https://www.linn.co.uk/uk/turntables
The latest upgrades.
“In a world of planned obsolescence, we do the opposite. Every single person who has bought a Sondek LP12 from 1973 onwards has the ability to fully upgrade their product to the very latest specification. So as an LP12 owner, you know your investment will stand the test of time”.

They’ll know the size of the market opportunity, they made >100,000 of them!
 
LP12s are just about infinitely improvable. A Karousel bearing and Core sub-chassis (or rival from independents perhaps) will make it a good deal more neutral, quicker and quieter in background. A Lingo PS helps too. Without knowing more about your system and preferences, I can't tell whether going further would make any sense, even if you wanted to, but you could make your old LP12 sound very much like a Klimax LP12 if you wanted - no loss of magic (to most ears) but more music and more accuracy.

LP12 upgrades are often expensive (esp. if buying Linn), but so are comparable un-suspended tables - there are several good choices, including an RP10. Only your ears can tell what you like, but I'd caution against the initial Wow! factor in the first few minutes of hearing a modern deck. I'd suggest as long a listening session as you can get, comparing the best Rega that you regard as affordable with an LP12 that has had some upgrades.

Purely personally, I got an LP12 decades ago because I liked music through it more than through anything else, whether or not I could work out exactly why. Since then I have heard a lot of other turntables - many were clearly excellent, but I didn't buy them and spent cash every decade or so on my LP12 to make the music better.
 
I was always surprised at how long Linn spent leaving much of the LP12 upgrade market to a whole ecosystem of third party suppliers and modifiers..

It's quite simple. From the late eighties, early nineties vinyl was in decline and expected to die a slow death. Linn embraced digital, install systems etc but couldn't drop the LP12 as it was their signature product. They did drop their other turntables and clearly felt deep investment in a dying format was not justified. The deck was on the slow burner for decades, I heard that LP12 production at one point was effectively one bench.

It's worked out really well though. They are investing in new vinyl bits and, thanks to never changing the architecture of the deck, have fifty years of product and reputation to benefit from. I imagine other manufacturers much look at the LP12 life-cycle and wish they'd thought of it.
 
I'm not much of a tweaker but now there are loads of cheap cirkus kits around I'm tempted to pick one up, not sure whether to do the subchassis at the same time.
 
I'm not much of a tweaker but now there are loads of cheap cirkus kits around I'm tempted to pick one up, not sure whether to do the subchassis at the same time.

If your pre-Cirkus bearing is in good condition, a lot of them aren't, I'd be tempted to keep it and upgrade other things. Crazy? Well, I've always felt the old bearing had something about its sound which is lost with the Cirkus. I have two LP12s just now, one with a Cirkus and one with the old bearing and I like both.

The Stack Audio Tenor alloy sub-chassis is cheap, works great and is compatible with the pre-Cirkus bearing.
 
An LP12 may be less romantic with a better bearing, but I reckon you hear more music. However, I'd be tempted to agree with @Mr Pig about a Cirkus for a different reason. If you want to replace the excess warmth with accuracy, the Karousel is a big help, so I'd suggest you either keep your bearing (if you really want to keep what it does) or go straight to Karousel.

I have not heard the Stack audio sub-chassis but it does look to offer great value for money in another area where an old LP12 really needs it (at least to my ear).
 
I'm going to go against the sentiments stated here and say
A Rega P8 will far exceed the performance of your lp12
I've had several linns ...in various spec's...some far exceeding the OPs one...and while a 12 will sound better 5% of the time on certain records ...overall the P8 or P10 are way better products at far more sensible prices.
There...I've said it...an ex linn owner who will NOT be going back
 
I'm going to go against the sentiments stated here and say
A Rega P8 will far exceed the performance of your lp12
I've had several linns ...in various spec's...some far exceeding the OPs one...and while a 12 will sound better 5% of the time on certain records ...overall the P8 or P10 are way better products at far more sensible prices.
There...I've said it...an ex linn owner who will NOT be going back
I have an old Planar 3 with Rega upgrades that I love. I find it both neutral & musical. I haven’t listened to a Linn properly in donkeys years.

In what ways do you prefer the Rega? How does it rate musically against the Linn? What makes a record sound better on the Linn?
 
I'm going to go against the sentiments stated here and say
A Rega P8 will far exceed the performance of your lp12
I've had several linns ...in various spec's...some far exceeding the OPs one...and while a 12 will sound better 5% of the time on certain records ...overall the P8 or P10 are way better products at far more sensible prices.
There...I've said it...an ex linn owner who will NOT be going back

Likewise. There were a significant number who were convinced by the P9 (especially the second RB1000 version) in the 2000s to drop the LP12/

Much as I think the LP12 has some virtues, for all the cottage industry and Linn's own efforts to correct the deck's downsides, the three point suspension and its engineering compromises remain.
 


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