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Roe vs Wade overturned

Graham B said:
Be honest - when you were 17 - 22, did you or a partner never have a pregnancy scare? I bet most people do, and a large share will sort it with a morning after pill. But if you’re too late or it doesn’t work, do you really believe people should be forced to have children that they don’t want, and they aren’t ready for? This spells the worst outcome for the child and the parents.
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I am more concerned with the life of a child than the selfish needs of the parent.
 
DonQuixote99 said:
The point is of course that we don't do that, you have the *choice* to donate or not, even if the prospective recipient will die. I think carrying a baby to term and giving birth, which you view as compulsory, is quite comparable. Basically, we have a rights in conflict situation here, adult citizen vs a potential person. You have lots of empathy for the potential person, and only scorn for the adult citizen, who you imagine as selfish and immoral. As to that, some are, some aren't, but the nature of rights is you have them by default anyway. Control over one's own body is a pretty big thing for a potential person to cancel, we don't let adults with bad kidneys do that. Oh my goodness indeed.
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We all have our own views but it's doubtful i will change my stance on this. I'm pro life & cannot see a single argument here to change my mind.
 
Ragaman said:
Extinguishing life due to personal selfishness is not something i believe in, as expressed earlier, take responsibility for your actions, there are thousands of couples who cannot conceive & desperately want to rear a child. Take responsibility, give birth & let someone who wants the child, take control. Does anyone really have the right to extinguish potential life if sex was consensual.
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Somewhat of an overly simplistic and myopic stance, but each to their own I guess. For most rational minded folk, abortion is a basic human right. Some may find it distasteful or unfortunate, but possess enough empathy to understand that a woman may choose this route because of the hardship/impact it may have on their life.

Any human should be free to decide what is best for them, without any religious (make believe) doctrine restricting their choices. The impact on their lives is for them to consider not ANYONE else. Deprivation of Liberty is a serious and draconian measure. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan etc are rightly derided for their treatment of anyone that is deemed to be ‘lesser’.



Thankfully we are not governed in the UK by religious nut jobs.... we have our own set of mistakes
 
Ragaman said:
We all have our own views but it's doubtful i will change my stance on this. I'm pro life & cannot see a single argument here to change my mind.
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Of course not. Argument practically never changes anyone's mind. You will change, if you ever do, as a result of something else. So this argument game we play here is mainly a way for us each to feel strong and smart and stuff.
 
Ragaman said:
I get annoyed when people ask questions already answered, it shows those doing so have little interest in this delicate subject & more interested in scoring infantile points to their crowd, the pfm massive that is. If anyone can convince me the killing of potential life is a woman's right, then i will listen.
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Ragaman said:
We all have our own views but it's doubtful i will change my stance on this. I'm pro life & cannot see a single argument here to change my mind.
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Yes and typically you do that without ever addressing any points put to you. Also, this 'pro life' holier than thou bollocks has to be called out for the bigoted nonsense it is. The removal of a woman's ability to get legitimate care will most certainly result in deaths. You are all over the place on this and as men, this really is nothing to do with us. If men carried babies this would not even be a thing, they would expect choice over their own health.
 
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Yank said:
I'd trace it back farther than Reagan. There's the Powell Memo of 1971, and the founding of the Heritage Foundation in 1973 to turn the Powell Memo into policy. This is the blueprint for shifting the tax burden away from the corporations and ultra-wealthy.

And the rise of the religious right to oppose school desegregation also occurred in the early 1970s. They soon shifted their focus to opposition of Roe v Wade, which was decided (by a REPUBLICAN Supreme Court...) in 1973.
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Thanks, I always enjoy your depth of knowledge.

Was it not the Council for National Policy, CNP, formed in 1981, during Reagan's presidency, that solidified the various Christian (so-called), conservative (right-wing fascists) groups into a structured activist secret group?

Interesting article which makes the case that the interconnectedness of various Russian & US groups including the CNP, Mercers & Kochs is behind the various attacks on democracy & human rights
https://bylinetimes.com/2021/03/02/...an-moralists-behind-the-january-insurrection/
“A lot of the people involved with CNP got involved with a group called the World Congress of Families that was put together in the mid-‘90s by an American visiting Russia, who realised that traditional values family values were something that would unite the East and the West, Russia and the United States.” By 2011, the World Congress of Families started scheduling their meetings in Russia.​
 
Ragaman said:
Extinguishing life due to personal selfishness is not something i believe in, as expressed earlier, take responsibility for your actions, there are thousands of couples who cannot conceive & desperately want to rear a child. Take responsibility, give birth & let someone who wants the child, take control. Does anyone really have the right to extinguish potential life if sex was consensual.
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Leaving aside any challenge to your other stated positions here (which, FTAOD, I consider shallow and barely thought through) let’s just bear in mind that one of the greatest threats to civilisation, and to the planet, is the growth of the human population to unsustainable levels. But you think we shouldn’t attempt to check that, at all. Because every potential foetus is sacrosanct. Okay. You are entitled to your opinion; I don’t think you’re entitled to force it on others. Which is what has happened here. Do you not see that?
 

I’ll park this here. The clip is about a year old, and I’ve posted it on other threads before, but to my mind Ana Kasparian absolutely nails it. This whole thread condensed into one minute and nineteen seconds. Her logic is flawless IMO. Her right to speak truth to what is now clearly an unjust power absolute. She is 100% right.

The only question left is how the rest of us on the planet coordinate to right an obvious wrong. This hopeless Trump-stacked Supreme Court can’t be seen as a legitimate power. This judgement needs undoing. The extremist religious ideologues who made it need removing or diluting with further appointments. They shame the constitution. They shame the Bill Of Rights. America can not be allowed to descend into a far-right theocracy.
 
Ragaman said:
I am more concerned with the life of a child than the selfish needs of the parent.
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Why should the parents rights and needs and wishes rank below an unborn child or cluster of cells that isn’t sentient?

The impact on the parents / mother are huge, physically, financially and emotionally. People choose not to have children by using contraception - why should they be forced to have a child because of an accident?

I think this comes back to the welfare of foetus vs child, whose rights suddenly seem less important once they are born. If the parents aren’t in the right place or don’t want a child for whatever reason, that child’s life could be awful, painful and short. No one should be forced to have children they don’t want, it’s terrible for everyone involved.
 
Tony L said:

I’ll park this here. The clip is about a year old, and I’ve posted it on other threads before, but to my mind Ana Kasparian absolutely nails it. This whole thread condensed into one minute and nineteen seconds. Her logic is flawless IMO. Her right to speak truth to what is now clearly an unjust power absolute. She is 100% right.

The only question left is how the rest of us on the planet coordinate to right an obvious wrong. This hopeless Trump-stacked Supreme Court can’t be seen as a legitimate power. This judgement needs undoing. The extremist religious ideologues who made it need removing or diluting with further appointments. They shame the constitution. They shame the Bill Of Rights. America can not be allowed to descend into a far-right theocracy.
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My attitude in a nutshell, got me sent away to a boarding school aged seven for emotionally disturbed children, via a child psychologist, left boarding school aged 16.

My adopted father was a minister of religion who engineered the arrangement!!
 
Yank said:
Could not also blue migration into red states turn those red states bluer?
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In theory, and perhaps in time. Texas has seen an influx of liberals, resulting in 1 additional republican congressional seat, due to gerrymandering , etc.
 
At the core of this debate is religion. According to many Christians (and especially Catholics), abortion is a horrible sin. To the less fanatical, and to those who instead choose to ground their reality in science, abortion is simply a medical procedure for women. And like ALL decisions involving medical procedures, it should strictly be between the pregnant woman and her physician. For the record, I believe very strongly in a woman’s right to choose their own fate.

Right now, thanks to T***p’s Supreme Court picks, a religious minority has imposed its will on the majority of US citizens. They have broken a cardinal rule, and melded church with state. It sucks, and it may suck for quite a few years. The only small glint of hope I have is historical. Only very rarely has a minority been able to wield power over a majority for a long period of time. Eventually, I hope they will all be voted out. But if GOP cheating means that doesn’t work, then the majority will find other ways to exert its will (demos, boycotts, strikes, riots, etc.). The current situation is untenable, but the question is how much worse does it get before it finally starts to get better. I honestly don’t know the answer, but I do know if the GOP has their way, a nationwide ban on abortion will be just the start.

Finally, I will say the obvious. As this thread clearly shows, you can learn a lot about a man by what he says about women’s rights.
 
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Ragaman said:
Try reading my posts before responding. My points regarding rape & the grooming of minors have been made quite clear. Read the posts next time.
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Really?
I responded to a simple one liner where you declared your unconditional 'pro life' views.
Whatever you may have said elsewhere doesn't trump that.
You are on the back foot.
Have the grace to acknowledge that.
 
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