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Technical speaker cable advice

peterm said:
Often quoted and makes a mockery of Julian's quote in an old magazine review (Malcolm Seward's?) that Naim won an out of court settlement from BICC over them selling a cable designed by Naim under the Linn brand name (but in a different colour with a different name on it) and that funded the research into a new cable (NAC A5) that was SO different in material and user friendliness that it beggars belief that Naim "designed" both cables to do the same job.
They must have spent at least 30 minutes looking through cable manufacturer's catalogues!

To paraphrase an old Naim advert, Mr Vereker told exceedingly good stories, and therein, perhaps, lies the secret of his success (not begrudged by the way, well done him I say, rather like James Dyson, an entrepeneur who happened to be in the right place at the right time (in the local pub in Dyson's case after doing the housework earlier and answering another local's question about what he'd been doing all day with the observation that that there must be a better way of extracting dust from a carpet to be told he needed a cyclone like the sawmill down the road used, the rest is history!)
Click to expand...
The following photograph makes clear the extent of Naim's design input.

880835-naim-nac-a4-speaker-cable.jpg
 
peterm said:
Often quoted and makes a mockery of Julian's quote in an old magazine review (Malcolm Seward's?) that Naim won an out of court settlement from BICC over them selling a cable designed by Naim under the Linn brand name (but in a different colour with a different name on it) and that funded the research into a new cable (NAC A5) that was SO different in material and user friendliness that it beggars belief that Naim "designed" both cables to do the same job.
They must have spent at least 30 minutes looking through cable manufacturer's catalogues! ...
Click to expand...
Key details are omitted and I think JV didn't say exactly what it was about which he got the claimed settlement. Well I have a hypothesis about which I could speculate ...

IIRC, I have seen JV quoted as saying he had no objection to PVC as an insulating material for loudspeaker cables but he objected to the properties of one or more of the plasticizers always used to make the PVC soft enough to handle.

Maybe he asked for a custom version of an existing cable with reduced plasticizer content (and so stiffer) or an alternative plasticizer type. I admit I know nothing about PVC plasticizers, but that is at least superficially plausible to me and might have led to a successful settlement.
 
The quote I referred to was from an extract in some Naim archives I read some years ago so may well not include all JV's comments from that interview.

Part of A5's stiffness derives from the fact that, compared to A4, it contains far fewer strands of considerably thicker wire, it's a completely different cable.
 
Found this old post regarding an industry wide change in insulation materials:-

rhgbristol said:
A4 used standard PVC as far as I can recollect, where as A5 I understand uses cross-linked polyethelyne (XPLE). This accounts for the much stiffer characteristic of A5 over A4.

This corellated to the change in the cable manufacturing industry which became prevalent about 20 years ago, when XLPE cables started to replace the normal PVC cables used for power distribution.

XLPE as an insulation material is able to run hotter than PVC, hence for a given conductor size a cable can carry more current if insulated in XLPE compared with PVC, with obvious commercial benefits in the areas of electrical design and contracting.

As Naim's cable is made by a well known UK commercial cable manufacturer, it is probably no surprise that the change was made to XLPE at the same time as the contracting and building services industry.
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Old Shatterhand said:
Thank you both again. For safety, I'm not going to buy fancy, expansive cables. Currently I'm using DNM but as mention by @Arkless Electronics that it does alter the sound I'm curious to try out a conventional (twisted) cable like the van Damme (I have used it in the past) again. Because I moved my setup from my tiny "only listening room" into our living room I recognize that the DNMs lean bass and brighter sound doesn't work anymore to my ears.
Click to expand...

Worth mentioning that swapped out 2x8m of DNM (the recent, grey stuff) for 2x5m of 4mm Van Damme at the weekend. This with a Naim NAP250DR.

My perception was that the sonic change was there, but was slight. The VD sounds a little more solid and easy going (whatever that means, I guess...)

One thing I definitely noticed was that I needed to up the volume control by at least 20 degrees or so with the VD. I suspect this has something to do with the difference in physical properties between the cables.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Cable doesn't have a sound. In the rare cases that it influences the sound it is due to the way the speaker interacts with the electrical characteristics of the cable. In the case of the thin ribbon DNM cable it has considerable resistance. This adds to the output impedance of the amplifier (which is usually negligibly low in the case of most SS amps) and reduces the damping factor, allowing the speakers impedance curve to interact with the total source impedance it see's and acting as a speaker dependent tone control, ie if the speaker happens to dip to say 5 Ohms around 2KHz then there will slightly reduced output at that frequency as more of the output is lost in the cables resistance than at frequencies where the speaker is 8 Ohm.

If a cable has high inductance then this has a frequency dependent effect. The higher the frequency the higher the impedance of the cable. In most circumstances this will be negligible and can be ignored. If a speaker has a major impedance drop at high frequencies (pretty rare) then this will cause a treble drop. ELS's can drop to 2 Ohms or so in some cases up at around 20KHz and this could then interact with high inductance cable to reduce top end. A few speakers have HF correcting crossovers with a major impedance dip at high frequencies but not many... original SL6 is about the only one that springs to mind but there will surely be others.
The voice coil of the tweeter has inductance and so the impedance of the tweeter is generally rising at the high end anyway and lessening/removing any risk of this happening. A few outliers like Maggies are pretty much a resistive load and in this case quite a low one at 3.5 Ohms and so cable inductance could have some effect.

Capacitance is pretty low even for high capacitance cables and the only effect is possible interaction with some badly designed amplifiers which are not unconditionally stable which could cause them to become unstable ie they oscillate, sometimes with fatal consequences for amplifier and/or speaker in extreme cases. In such cases the capacitance would also cause the amplifier to boost treble.... but only at frequencies bats could appreciate!
Note the cable does not boost treble. Cables have no sound. It is the capacitance making the amplifier boost treble! It would be VERY unlikely for this to happen at a frequency below say 30KHz so as I say for bats only.... and only with dodgy designed amps anyway.

Although the construction of a cable will effect the above parameters they are all directly proportional to the length of the cable. In the vast majority of circumstances only the resistance will have any effect.

TLDR; Use short lengths of pretty thick cable and all the above cable characteristics will be so microscopic that they will have no effect at all on sound and all cables will sound the same, ie totally transparent. ie if fairly short and thick then even placing monoblocks on pedestals behind each speaker and using only 6" of speaker cable would make no discernible further improvement.
Ideally place power amp between speakers or monoblocks next to each speaker and use longer interconnects.
Aesthetes concerned about hiding speaker cables and using say 12 - 15m lengths hidden in walls, in ceiling, under floor, will, perversely, need the thickest most welding cable like speaker cable to ameliorate the length...
Click to expand...

Just digging around the web looking for information about cables suitable for Electrostatics and this great post from Jez pops up. Really useful and clear. I didn't know the inductance of the speaker cable for an Electrostatic speaker was important, I've learnt something there, Ta :)

Just got to lay my hands in the inductance value of Van Damme blue, 4mm cable, but I assume small as the cables are close to each other.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Cable doesn't have a sound. In the rare cases that it influences the sound it is due to the way the speaker interacts with the electrical characteristics of the cable. In the case of the thin ribbon DNM cable it has considerable resistance. This adds to the output impedance of the amplifier (which is usually negligibly low in the case of most SS amps) and reduces the damping factor, allowing the speakers impedance curve to interact with the total source impedance it see's and acting as a speaker dependent tone control, ie if the speaker happens to dip to say 5 Ohms around 2KHz then there will slightly reduced output at that frequency as more of the output is lost in the cables resistance than at frequencies where the speaker is 8 Ohm.

If a cable has high inductance then this has a frequency dependent effect. The higher the frequency the higher the impedance of the cable. In most circumstances this will be negligible and can be ignored. If a speaker has a major impedance drop at high frequencies (pretty rare) then this will cause a treble drop. ELS's can drop to 2 Ohms or so in some cases up at around 20KHz and this could then interact with high inductance cable to reduce top end. A few speakers have HF correcting crossovers with a major impedance dip at high frequencies but not many... original SL6 is about the only one that springs to mind but there will surely be others.
The voice coil of the tweeter has inductance and so the impedance of the tweeter is generally rising at the high end anyway and lessening/removing any risk of this happening. A few outliers like Maggies are pretty much a resistive load and in this case quite a low one at 3.5 Ohms and so cable inductance could have some effect.

Capacitance is pretty low even for high capacitance cables and the only effect is possible interaction with some badly designed amplifiers which are not unconditionally stable which could cause them to become unstable ie they oscillate, sometimes with fatal consequences for amplifier and/or speaker in extreme cases. In such cases the capacitance would also cause the amplifier to boost treble.... but only at frequencies bats could appreciate!
Note the cable does not boost treble. Cables have no sound. It is the capacitance making the amplifier boost treble! It would be VERY unlikely for this to happen at a frequency below say 30KHz so as I say for bats only.... and only with dodgy designed amps anyway.

Although the construction of a cable will effect the above parameters they are all directly proportional to the length of the cable. In the vast majority of circumstances only the resistance will have any effect.

TLDR; Use short lengths of pretty thick cable and all the above cable characteristics will be so microscopic that they will have no effect at all on sound and all cables will sound the same, ie totally transparent. ie if fairly short and thick then even placing monoblocks on pedestals behind each speaker and using only 6" of speaker cable would make no discernible further improvement.
Ideally place power amp between speakers or monoblocks next to each speaker and use longer interconnects.
Aesthetes concerned about hiding speaker cables and using say 12 - 15m lengths hidden in walls, in ceiling, under floor, will, perversely, need the thickest most welding cable like speaker cable to ameliorate the length...
Click to expand...

Simple and easy, well explained. This should be in the reference section and quoted every time a cable thread is started.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
There's many such technical posts I've made which should be in the reference section... strangely enough it never happens:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I couldn't possibly comment:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Indeed :)

Digging around a little more I find that Mogami 3082 speaker cable has a particular low induction, and this is possibly guilding a lilly, but I fancy some for my 57s. I have some short lengths of the 3082 that I use on my PFM specials and it is super flexible and easy to hide.

I bought from Redco Audio in the US previously, is there somewhere cheaper in the UK that someone could point me at please?

https://www.redco.com/Mogami-W3082.html

Ta.
 
peterm said:
The quote I referred to was from an extract in some Naim archives I read some years ago so may well not include all JV's comments from that interview.

Part of A5's stiffness derives from the fact that, compared to A4, it contains far fewer strands of considerably thicker wire, it's a completely different cable.
Click to expand...
The full quote was possibly this:
“
Date: September 10, 1999 05:14 AM
Author: julian vereker
Subject: NACA4

Incidentally the Linn (K20?) cable was an illegal copy by BICC of our
NACA4, BICC thought that it was their design and therefore started
supplying both grey and black copies to other manufacturers including
Linn - due to a change of staff/factory I believe.

When this was pointed out to BICC, they settled out of court. We then
spent the money on designing a new and better cable with another
supplier under a secrecy agreement, and this is the NACA5.

julian”

The entire archive is here: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/JV.TXT
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Cable doesn't have a sound. In the rare cases that it influences the sound it is due to the way the speaker interacts with the electrical characteristics of the cable. In the case of the thin ribbon DNM cable it has considerable resistance. This adds to the output impedance of the amplifier (which is usually negligibly low in the case of most SS amps) and reduces the damping factor, allowing the speakers impedance curve to interact with the total source impedance it see's and acting as a speaker dependent tone control, ie if the speaker happens to dip to say 5 Ohms around 2KHz then there will slightly reduced output at that frequency as more of the output is lost in the cables resistance than at frequencies where the speaker is 8 Ohm.

If a cable has high inductance then this has a frequency dependent effect. The higher the frequency the higher the impedance of the cable. In most circumstances this will be negligible and can be ignored. If a speaker has a major impedance drop at high frequencies (pretty rare) then this will cause a treble drop. ELS's can drop to 2 Ohms or so in some cases up at around 20KHz and this could then interact with high inductance cable to reduce top end. A few speakers have HF correcting crossovers with a major impedance dip at high frequencies but not many... original SL6 is about the only one that springs to mind but there will surely be others.
The voice coil of the tweeter has inductance and so the impedance of the tweeter is generally rising at the high end anyway and lessening/removing any risk of this happening. A few outliers like Maggies are pretty much a resistive load and in this case quite a low one at 3.5 Ohms and so cable inductance could have some effect.

Capacitance is pretty low even for high capacitance cables and the only effect is possible interaction with some badly designed amplifiers which are not unconditionally stable which could cause them to become unstable ie they oscillate, sometimes with fatal consequences for amplifier and/or speaker in extreme cases. In such cases the capacitance would also cause the amplifier to boost treble.... but only at frequencies bats could appreciate!
Note the cable does not boost treble. Cables have no sound. It is the capacitance making the amplifier boost treble! It would be VERY unlikely for this to happen at a frequency below say 30KHz so as I say for bats only.... and only with dodgy designed amps anyway.

Although the construction of a cable will effect the above parameters they are all directly proportional to the length of the cable. In the vast majority of circumstances only the resistance will have any effect.

TLDR; Use short lengths of pretty thick cable and all the above cable characteristics will be so microscopic that they will have no effect at all on sound and all cables will sound the same, ie totally transparent. ie if fairly short and thick then even placing monoblocks on pedestals behind each speaker and using only 6" of speaker cable would make no discernible further improvement.
Ideally place power amp between speakers or monoblocks next to each speaker and use longer interconnects.
Aesthetes concerned about hiding speaker cables and using say 12 - 15m lengths hidden in walls, in ceiling, under floor, will, perversely, need the thickest most welding cable like speaker cable to ameliorate the length...
Click to expand...
You’re aware that this will be treated as trolling by the believers Jez.
Actual factuals have no place in Audiophile world.
Hope the bags are packed & you have said your goodbyes to the tolerant.
I’m gonna hide behind this Nordost cable burner & keep a watchful eye out.
 
Amber Audio said:
You could try pinging HHB if you want bulk, afaik they are the UK Mogami Distis
https://www.hhb.co.uk/prod/mogami/superflexible-coax-studio-speaker-cable-3082/

I use StudioSpares for short Mogami stuff, but they don’t seem to have that 3082 in

Dealer list
https://mogami.co.uk/buy/
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Thank you for the pointer. I have bought, terminated and installed a pair of 7m, Mogami W3082 cables for my 57s. Couldn't say whether there has been an improvement, but I'm still listening to music as I did before.

Anyone want to buy 2x10m of 4mm2 Van Damme blue cable?
 
chiily said:
Just digging around the web looking for information about cables suitable for Electrostatics and this great post from Jez pops up. Really useful and clear. I didn't know the inductance of the speaker cable for an Electrostatic speaker was important, I've learnt something there, Ta :)

Just got to lay my hands in the inductance value of Van Damme blue, 4mm cable, but I assume small as the cables are close to each other.
Click to expand...

FWIW you can estimate the value of inductance/m from the capacitance/m and assuming an effective dielectric constant that is a mix of air and rhe cable insulation material.
 
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