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Shireen Abu Aqla

I don’t disagree, and it’s not unlike the situation where the anti-apartheid campaign wasn’t advocating for the destruction of South Africa, but the SA government (shamefully abetted by our own at times) elided the two in public discourse.

In a way, then, any suggestion that opposition to Israeli oppression of Palestinians is anti-Zionist is an Israeli confection. But might become fact in the public perception. SA was rehabilitated after a monumental effort by Tutu, Mandela et al. I don’t see equivalent figures in Israel, so the path to pariah state is still open, IMHO.

'equivalent figures in Israel' ? Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of course. But he was assassinated in 1995 when he got too close to peace with the Palestinians. I don't believe for a minute that some random lone activist was able to kill a PM of Israel without help from within Mossad and the highest levels of security and Government.
 
So are you telling left-wing Jews who have lived experience of anti-Semitism to avoid the term. Seems pretty weird to me.

I wasn’t responding to your post/article, which I haven’t read yet. I’d obviously not even dream of correcting anyone of Jewish heritage on this sort of subject. They are the people I want to listen to. I was talking about the rest of us. I’m just sick of frothing far-left gobshites using the term ‘Zionist’ as a weapon whilst simultaneously believing in a lizard/Jewish conspiracy owning the financial system etc etc (available in mural form for the hard of thinking).

There are many phrases and terms that have very different weights and meanings when used in an in-group or out-group context and part of respecting minority cultures is fully understanding this and knowing when to simply listen rather than rant/white mansplain. There are many words within say the Jewish, black, LGBT+ etc communities that I am well aware of as an onlooker but wouldn’t dream of actually using as I am not in any of these groupings. If I do ever use the word ‘Zionism’ it will be in the most limited context of the Jewish people having a right to a homeland and that land being Israel. I’m really not going anywhere near anything more than that!
 
Yes. In addition, it is interesting that over the past couple of weeks there were no threads here expressing outrage at 3 Israeli civilians being hacked to death with axes by a gang of Arabs, and another 3 shot dead in a bar in TelAviv by a single Arab terrorist. While one American-Palestinian journalist who, wearing flak jacket and helmet was intentionally in the middle of a fire-fight was, almost certainly by accident by one side or the other, killed arouses outpourings of simplistic rage against Israel.
Fair enough, but if it’s a balanced view is what we’re after, what would the balance sheet of Israeli vs Palestinian deaths look like?
 
'equivalent figures in Israel' ? Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of course. But he was assassinated in 1995 when he got too close to peace with the Palestinians. I don't believe for a minute that some random lone activist was able to kill a PM of Israel without help from within Mossad and the highest levels of security and Government.

There was a film made about Rabin's assassin a few years ago, "Incitement." Its thesis was that the assassin had no support from, or connections with any part of the political establishment. Rather, that he believed that Rabin was selling out Israel and in this view was supported by others, but others who would never have actually countenanced assassination. But, once convinced that Rabin was betraying his own people, found scriptural justification for the idea that it was his duty to eliminate a traitor. How close this is to what really happened I have no idea, but it was an interesting film and explores the evolving states of mind of an "ordinary bloke," relatively insignificant, who becomes gradually convinced of his mission
 
I wasn’t responding to your post/article, which I haven’t read yet. I’d obviously not even dream of correcting anyone of Jewish heritage on this sort of subject. They are the people I want to listen to. I was talking about the rest of us. I’m just sick of frothing far-left gobshites using the term ‘Zionist’ as a weapon whilst simultaneously believing in a lizard/Jewish conspiracy owning the financial system etc etc (available in mural form for the hard of thinking).

There are many phrases and terms that have very different weights and meanings when used in an in-group or out-group context and part of respecting minority cultures is fully understanding this and knowing when to simply listen rather than rant/white mansplain. There are many words within say the Jewish, black, LGBT+ etc communities that I am well aware of as an onlooker but wouldn’t dream of actually using as I am not in any of these groupings. If I do ever use the word ‘Zionism’ it will be in the most limited context of the Jewish people having a right to a homeland and that land being Israel. I’m really not going anywhere near anything more than that!
Up to you (as is your choice about the word "apartheid").

As it happens, I don't use the word "Zionist" either but there are plenty of lefties (Jewish and non-Jewish) who do, and many of them are highly intelligent people who have read deeply on the subject. I have never observed any of them "frothing".

So, I'm not inclined to get hung up on the precise form of words used in these debates. Focusing on these relatively trivial features of the debate is one way the right exploits what ought to be a united front against the brutality we all witnessed this week in Jerusalem.
 
The fact that we get uniquely hung up on the meaning and use of words when it comes to describing the homeland of Israeli’s and Palestinians, in a way that we don’t anywhere else in the world, is telling.

The control of language frames so much of our thinking
 
The fact that we get uniquely hung up on the meaning and use of words when it comes to describing the homeland of Israeli’s and Palestinians, in a way that we don’t anywhere else in the world, is telling.

It is perfectly understandable given the Jewish people have a history of being persecuted the world over for thousands of years and were systemically exterminated in Europe in the mid-20th century. Israel itself being created as a state/safe-space in the aftermath of that genocide. It is clearly a hugely complex situation and entirely different to say the minority white elite apartheid rule of South Africa which was a direct result of imperialism, colonisation, white supremacy etc.
 
It is perfectly understandable given the Jewish people have a history of being persecuted the world over for thousands of years and were systemically exterminated in Europe in the mid-20th century. Israel itself being created as a state/safe-space in the aftermath of that genocide.
Agree. It's just problematic when you (as some do) try to use this as justification for perpetrating the same things that happend to you on other people. One bad deed doesn't excuse the other IMHO.
 
Yes. In addition, it is interesting that over the past couple of weeks there were no threads here expressing outrage at 3 Israeli civilians being hacked to death with axes by a gang of Arabs, and another 3 shot dead in a bar in TelAviv by a single Arab terrorist. While one American-Palestinian journalist who, wearing flak jacket and helmet was intentionally in the middle of a fire-fight was, almost certainly by accident by one side or the other, killed arouses outpourings of simplistic rage against Israel.
I really didn’t want to go down this road. However, 2008-2020, 251 Israelis killed, 5590 Palestinians killed. Death rate per million is 0.00003 and 0.001 respectively. You are 33 times more likely to be killed if you are a Palestinian. No outpouring of rage just plain facts. Let’s not even look at the comparisons regarding injuries.
 
Paulmb, i didn't see any publication of those Israeli deaths. But for the record. The taking of any life for any reason is wrong, irrespective of the political framing.

If you think anyone on here who is highlighting the murder of shireen Abu Aqla cares any less about the murders of those Israelis you'd be wrong. I'm as keen to see the perpetrators of those murders bought to justice as I am hers.

Maybe you should have started a thread about it. Bringing it up on this thread smacks of a weak attempt at whataboutism. Their deaths in no way diminish or justify hers, and vice versa.

It's a two tier apartheid state, and the violence will never end until that does.
 
It is perfectly understandable given the Jewish people have a history of being persecuted the world over for thousands of years and were systemically exterminated in Europe in the mid-20th century. Israel itself being created as a state/safe-space in the aftermath of that genocide. It is clearly a hugely complex situation and entirely different to say the minority white elite apartheid rule of South Africa which was a direct result of imperialism, colonisation, white supremacy etc.

But the Jewish people were not persecuted by Palestinians. If Israel had been created in, say, Bavaria that would be fine.
 
But the Jewish people were not persecuted by Palestinians. If Israel had been created in, say, Bavaria that would be fine.

I wasn’t in any way attempting to justify the behaviour of the far-right Likud Israeli government, just suggesting why it is such a hard topic to navigate compared to say South African apartheid.
 
The Israel/Palestine issue get's microscopically picked apart on a regular basis. Meanwhile, conflicts ravage on in Africa, the Middle East, South America. Human rights abuses of the most nefarious kind take place in Saudi, China, and elsewhere. But why the Left's myopic focus on Israeli misdeeds? Emmm.......
 
The Israel/Palestine issue get's microscopically picked apart on a regular basis. Meanwhile, conflicts ravage on in Africa, the Middle East, South America. Human rights abuses of the most nefarious kind take place in Saudi, China, and elsewhere. But why the Left's myopic focus on Israeli misdeeds? Emmm.......

Because it is a highly sophisticated and powerful State against an indigenous population.
Because it has been going on for 75 years and affects every aspect of life.
Because it is an apartheid system.
Because it is entirely different from those comparisons you give.
 
The Israel/Palestine issue get's microscopically picked apart on a regular basis. Meanwhile, conflicts ravage on in Africa, the Middle East, South America. Human rights abuses of the most nefarious kind take place in Saudi, China, and elsewhere. But why the Left's myopic focus on Israeli misdeeds? Emmm.......
No it doesn’t. What actually happens is that Israel routinely commits atrocities that would invite condemnation from political leaders across the spectrum were they the work of, say, Russia, and instead we hear about “clashes”, “competing claims”, Israel being an embattled democracy. Then silence until it becomes impossible to ignore again.
 
Also, given their history as victims of atrocities, and their status as a first world economy and nuclear power, we are entitled to hold them to higher standards than many other places where atrocities happen.
 
Also, given their history as victims of atrocities, and their status as a first world economy and nuclear power, we are entitled to hold them to higher standards than many other places where atrocities happen.

We (the west) should also hold ourselves to far higher standards when it comes to who we arm and enable in acts of brutality, oppression and terror. Saudi, UAE etc etc come to mind too.
 
No it doesn’t. What actually happens is that Israel routinely commits atrocities that would invite condemnation from political leaders across the spectrum were they the work of, say, Russia, and instead we hear about “clashes”, “competing claims”, Israel being an embattled democracy. Then silence until it becomes impossible to ignore again.
I meant Lefties on social media, you seem to be talking about MSM? But f you're making comparisons with Russia, then I'd say America does all those things you accuse Israel of, just not on their own soil.
 
I meant Lefties on social media, you seem to be talking about MSM? But f you're making comparisons with Russia, then I'd say America does all those things you accuse Israel of, just not on their own soil.
Maybe one of the reasons lefties on social media bang on about it so much is that mainstream media and politicians treat it as basically fine.
 


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