Ukraine III

[matthewr]

So in the absence of any credible solutions from you you must accept that your own position also offers nothing more than mere platitudes.

My position is that there is not much to be done beyond what we are currently doing (sanctions, military and political support). The thing I disagreed with was people saying "No we should do peace talks" without offering up even the slightest suggestion about why this might work in the context of Putin and what we know about how he behaves and operates. I just found this to be a very naive view when offered without any supporting argument other than we should do talks.

I am also astonished talks have got as far as they have and I remain remain deeply suspicious of whether they will succeed, of Putin and his intentions and whether he can even be trusted in the event of an actual deal being made. Of course nothing would please me more than to be wrong one this and for talks to lead to a lasting peace.

FWIW I even went off and watched a two hour video by someone recommended by Drood to get myself some exposure to an alternative view and "check my priors". It's an excellent video and I learnt a great deal about Putin and the mistakes the west have made in dealing with him over the years although ultimately I found myself even more convinced of my original (admittedly somewhat unremarkable) views.

 

[Euan]

Not good if true. LINK

 

[TheDecameron]

I have been watching a few videos from this channel and have found them interesting. They are vox pops from ordinary Russians

Thanks for that, interesting to see young optimistic, open minded Russians. They certainly got the ‘special operation’ branding and most bought into the need for it and not seeing direct effects from sanctions which is understandable as those will take time to bite.
Two things will inevitably happen- the dead and injured will come back from Ukraine and Putin’s information sterile zone will cave in and eventually sanctions will be felt personally. What would be good is further dissent, dismissals and arrests within the upper echelons- visible cracks.

 

[Brian]

The simple facts are these; I have consistently been calling for negotiations for some time. You have been consistently extremely hostile to that call for negotiations. The fact that negotiations have been going on only confirms that Ukraine also agrees that negotiations are desirable. If the Ukrainian position and my own are in agreement, then there is no contradiction. On the other hand, your hostility to negotiations a few days ago and your now apparent change of heart due in the light of the Ukrainian position, is contradictory. The only question then, is do you still maintain your hostility to negotiations, or do you now agree with the Ukrainian position that is accepting of negotiations? Or are you only interested in marinating hostility?

Give it a rest.

 

[Finnegan]

Good, balanced account of fascist activity in Ukraine.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Two things will inevitably happen- the dead and injured will come back from Ukraine and Putin’s information sterile zone will cave in and eventually sanctions will be felt personally.

One thing that Russia doesn't always do is "bring the boys back home" for precisely this reason - dead bodies arriving home cause difficult questions to be asked. However, even if bodies do get back to Russia, Putin made deaths in peacetime a state secret in 2017 (https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-russia-hides-its-dead-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine) and, as this is not war but merely a special operation, I suspect that law remains. They will honour their dead (like the pantomime rally held this week) but Moscow won't disclose true numbers; US estimates about 7000 dead by 2nd of March, Moscow claims <500 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine).

 

[DonQuixote99]

Simple. End of negotiations.
But the more realistic answer is that an agenda will have to be agreed just to get the two parties to the table. So if either was intransigent, the talks wouldn’t even get started

Why were you continuing to speak as if talks were not occurring? The talks started and are ongoing, because each side wants things that having talks may provide. Who is intransigent about what cannot be inferred from the existence of talks and is always subject to change.

 

[DonQuixote99]

That was 3 days ago. The hostility to any suggestion of peace talks predates that

The hostility was to the tone and context of your posts, I think.

 

[DimitryZ]

The simple facts are these; I have consistently been calling for negotiations for some time. You have been consistently extremely hostile to that call for negotiations. The fact that negotiations have been going on only confirms that Ukraine also agrees that negotiations are desirable. If the Ukrainian position and my own are in agreement, then there is no contradiction. On the other hand, your hostility to negotiations a few days ago and your now apparent change of heart due in the light of the Ukrainian position, is contradictory. The only question then, is do you still maintain your hostility to negotiations, or do you now agree with the Ukrainian position that is accepting of negotiations? Or are you only interested in marinating hostility?

You can continue to focus on me, if that's interesting to you.

However, you are unwilling or unable to articulate what is that you want Ukrainians to do other than what they are already doing.

Something about their behavior is unsatisfactory to you, so you are constantly calling for "peace talks" while they have been going on for two weeks now.

Unless "peace talks" is a euphemism for something else. Care to explain?

 

[deanf]

There’s nothing like a war to cause a good argument!

 

[Seeker_UK]

There’s nothing like a war to cause a good argument!

 

[MUTTY1]

One of the upsides of this thread has been people digging up useful resources. Hopefully, it will get back on track soon. I found this quite interesting. I’ve watched some other stuff by Berja and don’t think he is being contrarian for the sake of it.

 

[anubisgrau]

I'm Russian. I am 57 years old . And I support what our government is doing now . And many of my friends and relatives also support our Army . The Nazis must be fought . My country was able to destroy the entire fascist 3rd Reich. And we can do it again . Let them be afraid of the Arabs in Europe and in England , but in our country they are fighting the terrorists resolutely . We will drive out the Nazis in Ukraine like cockroaches and rats.... You are all here - write a lot of nonsense and nonsense about my country.... Prepare a bunker (or barn) for Zelensky's shelter. Very soon he will need it to hide his ass .....Have a good Friday to everyone !

Are you Ukrainian?

 

[Seanm]

One of the upsides of this thread has been people digging up useful resources. Hopefully, it will get back on track soon. I found this quite interesting. I’ve watched some other stuff by Berja and don’t think he is being contrarian for the sake of it.

I don’t know how I came across him but I’ve found his analysis helpful. If depressing.

 

[MUTTY1]

Are you Ukrainian?

No. He’s Agressian

 

[MUTTY1]

I don’t know how I came across him but I’ve found his analysis helpful. If depressing.

yes, there’s a bit more wishful thinking about than is justified I reckon.

 

[anubisgrau]

The Bosnian President said of Milošević in the negations to end the Balkan war, “offer him a finger and he takes your arm off at the elbow”.

A pile of shite really. if you refer to Dayton agreement and that was the end of that war, a drunken Milosevic gave Bosnian president Brcko corridor that they even didn't ask for. Get your facts together.

 

[anubisgrau]

No. He’s Agressian

I don't think so. It's a textbook piece of PR writing. Someone who want to spread a propaganda how every Russian is just as you described it.

It's sad that PFM fell into this spiral so much. No one reacts to obvious trolling - this or making a story of regular yellow uniforms of Russian space mission.

 

[MUTTY1]

I don't think so. It's a textbook piece of PR writing. Someone who want to spread a propaganda how every Russian is just as you described it.

It's sad that PFM fell into this spiral so much. No one reacts to obvious trolling - this or making a story of regular yellow uniforms of Russian space mission.

It’s just a play on words. Seriousness of subject isn’t being belittled.

 

[Mullardman]

Principles are cheap to have and bang on about on a hifi forum so long as someone else is doing the dying for them. We have too many keyboard generals, safely tucked up in bed worrying about the price of gas and defiantly 'standing up to Putin' by calling for other people's sons to die.They have the brass neck to talk of 'humanity'? Chickenhawks.

Cooky, if, as I suspect, that is aimed at me.. you severely misread or misunderstood my post. I have not at any point said the peace talks should not happen, and it is obvious that Ukraine should offer peace talks if only to take the moral high ground. But, I can only repeat that it is up to Ukraine to determine how much they wish to fight for their democracy and for a peace they can live with. Just as you argue I have no right to demand others fight for democracy...you have no right to argue that they don't. Both you and ks.234 continue to 'demand' peace, but with little regard to what that could mean for Ukraine in practical terms for generations to come. If Putin gains ascendancy over, or regime change in.. Ukraine, he will not forget the cost to him of his criminal actions and will undoubtedly take his revenge on every Ukrainian.

FFS!! He can't even make Russia a prosperous, stable and happy place, even with the advantage of huge lands and enormous resources shared by a athetically small population. He's just a jumped up Gangster, whose insecurity is such that his natural response to opposition..even peaceful opposition...is to lash out. Of course just like all despots..he will fall..but it needs to be in days or weeks..not years.