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Gales : how good can they get ?

Stage 3 - seperation of inductors. Rating *** vfm 10/10

That Danish guy Troels Gravesen used to have diagrams on his site showing badly positioned inductors and the electrical consequences of such.
I had this in mind when pondering over the 401 circuit board. The hf inductor and smaller mf one are so intimate that a condom ought to be required.
Previous restoration projects seen on t'web had always left these in their loving embrace. Then I came across an Australian site where a guy had seperated
them, but as part of a general upgrade of every other component. So he never knew the contribution of the seperation to the whole.
The perfect opportunity for fools to rush in !
It was the simplest thing to remove the retaining bolt and seperate the pair of them by some 4 inches. There was sufficient uncoiled wire to enable this
without disturbing any of the soldering.
I wasn't expecting the degree of improvement I heard.
A lot cleaner and clearer. Low level detail emerges from the background murk to play tunes and rhythms. Affects mid and high equally. Soundstaging too.
After extended listening sessions, realized that the entire mid/high performance had been compromised by this inductor interaction which was responsible
for unevenness and confusion.
Delighted by this (price-less) upgrade, but also a bit disturbed.
These things were hobbled and needlessly handicapped even as they came off the assembly line.
Thousands of proud owners who would have no idea.
I owe Troels a big thank you.
 
Stage 3 - part ll .
Thought I'd done with this inductor thing but something GWM said in # 16 kept gnawing away in the background.... coils don't like to be near to other metal. Even non ferrous metal.
Yet, there they sit, skewered by a big fat brass bolt. So, off came the HF inductor from the board to be displaced by a further 2 inches from the one it was once almost joined to.
The pay off was a noticeable increase in treble focus and cohesion. I could have sat for hours trying disc after disc and revelling in the improvement, and in fact I did. But eventually
it dawned on me that there was the large MF coil still attached to the board by its brass bolt.
Removed and placed even further away from the others, and a slight reduction in congestion and muddle was the reward. Slight, but noticeable. And all the improvements are cumulative.
They stack up.
A good measuring stick that nicely illustrates this was a CD bought 6 months ago; a nostalgic indulgence in the sort of stuff I used to listen to 40 years ago. Metheney's Whichita Falls is
not particularly well recorded, and when first played through the (recently acquired ) Gales was bad enough to be placed in the 'lousy transfer' pile. Specifically, the title track has a Chinese-y
section about 4 minutes in that renders as a painful cacophony. Or at least it did . These recent inductor shenanigans have transformed the listening experience, and now I can follow each
instrument and its contribution to the whole.Now it all makes musical sense. And that, dearest reader , is why I faff about with hi fi gear in the first place.
 
Stage 3 - part ll .
Thought I'd done with this inductor thing but something GWM said in # 16 kept gnawing away in the background.... coils don't like to be near to other metal. Even non ferrous metal.
Yet, there they sit, skewered by a big fat brass bolt.


Non ferrous metals have the same permability as air:
https://www.nde-ed.org/Physics/Materials/Physical_Chemical/Permeability.xhtml

If removal of the brass bolts had changed the inductance value then the crossover characteristics would change. It's unlikely a change would fluke a better result.
 
Non ferrous metals have the same permability as air:
https://www.nde-ed.org/Physics/Materials/Physical_Chemical/Permeability.xhtml

If removal of the brass bolts had changed the inductance value then the crossover characteristics would change. It's unlikely a change would fluke a better result.
So if the brass is not affecting anything, the improvements can only be because of
- increased distance between inductors
- removal of inductors from negative influence of circuit board (eddy currents/bad ju-ju/whatever )
- something else
Either way, I'm happy to have the free upgrades.
TG did have pics on his site showing the placement of coils in the proximity of aluminum
whilst hooked up to a meter. The values were affected.
 
This is the picture originally linked on the Troels Gravesen site. Compare with the actual Gale layout in original post.

Thanks for posting this. It might well be the reason why my Snell J2s start to loose their way when the music gets busy.
 
I was looking at the 401 crossover circuit. I think I have an unused pair of Mills 3R9 12W resistors. PM me if you want them.

You do need to ditch those cement resistors
 
Non ferrous metals have the same permability as air:
https://www.nde-ed.org/Physics/Materials/Physical_Chemical/Permeability.xhtml

If removal of the brass bolts had changed the inductance value then the crossover characteristics would change. It's unlikely a change would fluke a better result.

"Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism.

Brass bolts will have changed the inductance - they will have eddy current shielding effects. A ferrous bolt will raise the inductance, and a non ferrous one will reduce it.
 
"Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism.

Brass bolts will have changed the inductance - they will have eddy current shielding effects. A ferrous bolt will raise the inductance, and a non ferrous one will reduce it.
I'm assuming that plastic bolts would be best?
 
Depends if you want to keep the original inducance value. It does make you wonder if Gale designed the inductance values with or without the brass bolts.
My Gales had the US crossover, which were glued and zip tied down:

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/126899-gale/page/2/

At first glance the US made ones do look like a better solution.

"Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism.

No need to be rude.
The point is that if the inductance values have changed then it's unlikely to fluke a better result. However if Gale chose the inductors without the bolts then nws56's results are not a fluke... that's how it should have been!
 
I measured them with and without bolts only using a Meter mind, the values changed but from memory it wasn't a massive difference.That big Bass inductor is an issue as I've said before or at least mine were, it suffers from resonance and this will vary from part to part as they were all hand wound.It will also have a large fluctuating field around it so should be as far away from other inductors as possible.I replaced mine with a glued coil from Jantzen but now would probably have used one of their metal cored ones, they have much lower fields.
 
Depends if you want to keep the original inducance value. It does make you wonder if Gale designed the inductance values with or without the brass bolts.
My Gales had the US crossover, which were glued and zip tied down:

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/126899-gale/page/2/

At first glance the US made ones do look like a better solution.



No need to be rude.
The point is that if the inductance values have changed then it's unlikely to fluke a better result. However if Gale chose the inductors without the bolts then nws56's results are not a fluke... that's how it should have been!

Those U.S. crossovers look better quality, are the coils glued not just held together with tape, the resisters look better as well, mine were burnt out.Point to point wiring to
 
Those U.S. crossovers look better quality, are the coils glued not just held together with tape, the resisters look better as well, mine were burnt out.Point to point wiring to

Sorry it was about 15 years ago when I had mine, so I don't know. I can't find any pics of the crossover, although I did find some of my reveneering and reclothing job (FWIW):

Gale-401-1.jpg
 
I was looking at the 401 crossover circuit. I think I have an unused pair of Mills 3R9 12W resistors. PM me if you want them.

You do need to ditch those cement resistors
They are scheduled for replacement as soon as the circuit board is changed for a point to point arrangement.
I already have the Jantzens to do it - but thanks for your kind offer.
 
Those U.S. crossovers look better quality, are the coils glued not just held together with tape, the resisters look better as well, mine were burnt out.Point to point wiring to
Kind of funny you should say that. It was usually lamented that quality had taken a nose dive when production shifted to the States.... the crossover was held up as evidence.
Looking at again - in the light of recent experience - and it does indeed seems a smarter layout.
If only we didn't have to second guess all the whys and wherefores as to exactly why Ira did what he did.
The only ex employee comments I could find (Google group) were that things were often ' haphazard '.
 
On a ( loosely relevant ) side issue, here's a curio that's bound to come in handy at your local pub quiz :
Naim SBL
Linn Isobarik (late period)
Dahlquist dq 10
All legendary speakers, yet utterly different ideology and construction. But they have one
thing in common.

What is it ?
 
Sorry it was about 15 years ago when I had mine, so I don't know. I can't find any pics of the crossover, although I did find some of my reveneering and reclothing job (FWIW):

Gale-401-1.jpg
That's a nice restoration, never got as far a doing the outside of mine, they look like they should go in a skip but only use them occasionally so haven't bothered.
 
On a ( loosely relevant ) side issue, here's a curio that's bound to come in handy at your local pub quiz :
Naim SBL
Linn Isobarik (late period)
Dahlquist dq 10
All legendary speakers, yet utterly different ideology and construction. But they have one
thing in common.

What is it ?

Magnets.

Where do I claim my fiver?
 


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