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Nagra's 70th anni turntable,

The land-grab into oligarch bling-fi doesn’t seem to sit with the lovely open reel recorders of the ‘60s and ‘70s. ... Have they changed ownership?

Nagra consumer(*) audio was spun out of the real(*) Nagra some 20 years ago or so. The two companies are barely related.

(* Irony and pun intended.)
 
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Engineering is amazing. My challenge with all these Uber-tables is where the market is? Are there really that many people looking for $150k+ decks?
 
My work involves the use of a machine to polish hard materials to a repeatable and measurable high degree of accuracy - within one-two microns.

To achieve this the machine is built from expensive exotic materials and the parts themselves are machined to a high degree of accuracy. Components include an on-board computer, vacuum hold-down jigs, a massive turntable, and grinding devices that may be programmed to move back and forth across the turntable surface in predicatable patterns. Some parts were custom made to meet our specific requirements. It cost over £100,000 plus installation and accessories, and it can be fernickerty to set-up and use. Each machine is built to order and has a long lead time. The manufacturers have become experts in their customers' fields, and the customers have learnt a lot about precision engineering and materials science. At least one employee used to work for a well-known audio turntable manufacturer.

So the price of the Nagra (and all the many other similarly uber-expensive turntables) is not unreasonable and reflective of the objectives of the device, i.e. to measure the depth and modulation of micro-grooves in vinyl spinning at a constant speed at the maximum possible accuracy. The process of designing and building the turntable would have generated new understanding of the problem space and optimising performance which may be used in other products or other fields.

I suggest then that the price of the Nagra is not the issue but whether it is worth it to the purchaser to hear vinyl at its best. If I could afford it I would buy it because music is important to me.
 
I know people with spare money who are pre-occupied with ‘buying the best’. They live by the slogan, ‘you get what you pay for’. It means they never look at alternatives. They will buy the latest IPad Pro or MacBook when they don’t really need it or can barely operate it. They will buy a complex piece of hifi that they continually need to correct through support because they are lost in its complexity. They will be duped by tradesman who tell them their product is ‘the best’ when it isn’t. It’s just expensive.
I remember a scumbag lad at primary school who used to steal money from his elderly parents and then buy an expensive snooker cue or a new bike and bring it to school to brag. I think this is part of it as well. Not all obviously, but I think there are a fair few like this.Funny really.
I’ve never really had much money and I think this challenge is an advantage.
I look at many so called ‘high end’ products and often think, ‘that looks nice and sounds well but how come it costs so much?’ This sensibility diverts me from any interest or meaningless temptation really.
 
Paying this much for a belt-driven turntable is beyond my understanding.
Nobody seems to be able to do direct drives these days. Oh yes, the TD124 uses an old Technics motor!
 
Paying this much for a belt-driven turntable is beyond my understanding.

Me too. I’d very much like to hear one of these high-mass oligarch statement decks up against say a Nottingham Hyperspace or Dais. To my eyes you can get that design school (and with a lot of very clever thinking and quality engineering behind it) for a tiny fraction of the price of certain shinier alternatives.
 
That is actually very good value, not sure I like the idea of an air bearing (compressor noise?) but a very neat & beautiful design.

The compressor is supposed to be silent as it is a low pressure unit. I will report back on this as my MK 2 arrives next week.
 
Engineering is amazing. My challenge with all these Uber-tables is where the market is? Are there really that many people looking for $150k+ decks?

Always makes me laugh this, and the answer to your second question is "No". You will probably be able to count the worldwide sales of this on one hand, if that. See my comment re TechDas turntable sales in a previous post.

What experience have Nagra got in making turntables? Yes, they made very good tape machines, but that is the main Nagra company not the small Nagra audio side show company, plus there is a huge difference to what is needed to make a tape machine and what is needed to make a good turntable worth €170,000.

To make a good turntable you need years of experience in what works from a technical point of view plus what materials work together to make it sound good. Nagra has zero experience in this. If a company wants to start making good sounding violins they don't just make one and say "this is the ultimate violin". It takes years, often decades trying different designs and different materials to make a proper balanced good sounding turntable. Thats how companies build their reputation.
 
Me too. I’d very much like to hear one of these high-mass oligarch statement decks up against say a Nottingham Hyperspace or Dais. To my eyes you can get that design school (and with a lot of very clever thinking and quality engineering behind it) for a tiny fraction of the price of certain shinier alternatives.
Some people are happy to pay for shiny.
 
HiFi Plus will say it’s ‘something of a bargain’.

It’s the embodiment of Veblen goods. It’s priced so highly because the price is seen as reflecting the quality, and because there are (a few) rival products at that rarified level, and Nagra won’t want to be perceived as ‘cheap’ in that context.
 
Actually I think ultra-luxury pricing is there instead (OK, maybe as well) to sell lower priced products from the same company through an effect called "price anchoring".

Marketing research confirms this drags a customer's perception of "good value" in the direction of the ultra-luxury price. A £100 T-shirt becomes "good value" if compared to a very swanky £1,000 one. And the well-known saying goes: "The best way to sell a $2,000 wristwatch is to display it next to a $10,000 wristwatch".

I don't object to people paying ultra-luxury prices for ultra-luxury products. Heavens, I have my own (not ultra by any measure) luxury items, so where does one set any limit? However I do worry that the price anchoring effect also influences other audio equipment suppliers to move their own products upwards in the market leaving behind a lot of potential customers, including me.

Interesting!

If we put ourselves in Nagra's shoes and think how we can get a worthwhile share of the "hi-end" hifi market, maybe this is a good way to go.

They must have thought long and hard how much time, money and R&D cost needs to go into this (w)anchoring product. Too little and they don't get the cred, too much and they won't get their investment back.

I'm not convinced rich people fling their money about quite as easily as some of us think.
 
I think that high-end engineering does have its place, but what's more interesting, is how the solutions found, can be re-engineered to lower cost products. That's why car companies spend so much money on concept cars.
 
I’d argue you can’t make a turntable without high-end engineering. They are simple devices conceptually, but they require precision to make them work. This required level of engineering, whilst never cheap, is certainly not crazy expensive.

The thing that disappoints me is just how little original thought exists in the modern ultra-high-end. All too often they are simply applying ‘more’ rather than addressing the ‘why’ or ‘how’. I live in the vintage market as this stuff was all thought about decades to half a century ago.

If I wanted a turntable conceptually like the Nagra I’d hunt-down and buy one of the heavier Micro Seiki belt drives, a big NAS, or a Verdier second-hand. As it is I’m far from convinced high-mass is a good idea, so I won’t. I’m happy where I am with a classic 60 year old idler deck. To be honest the only interesting stuff I’ve seen in decades when it comes to turntables is from Rega who do seem to be pushing their own unique bar ever higher. There is some genuinely original thought and engineering on show there.
 
It's a turntable, all it needs is a good bearing and quiet motor and this seems to fit the bill.

Anti static methacrylate? I don't think so, you could barely pick a material more likely to generate static.
 
You would have though that direct drive would be the way to go. I have a Stanton ST150 DD here, fitted with an RB202/Carbon in a wooden plinth on Sorbothane pads. I use it mostly for old 45's, but it would be an interesting exercise for me to find out how good it could be! I know that a lot of people swear by the Technics!
 
The audio division of Nagra was spun-off a few years ago but is still Kudelski family-owned. Nagra is the brand name they use now, but the company’s name is actually Audio Technology Switzerland. The original company are still making things like TV set-top boxes, parking meters and ski-pass machines as before.

There’s a lot of negativity over this deck here - eg. questioning potential owners’ mental state or wisdom, claims of superior knowledge than what the designers have (who incude SME) etc etc. Just reeks of resentment from members here really. Being high-priced doesn’t make something secretly crap and it’s buyers idiots - and none of us have heard it.

I’d like to see Nagra make a small turntable that’s in keeping with their history, maybe like a modern day TD124. I’m sure they could produce another turntable for their Classic range of electronics.
 
The compressor is supposed to be silent as it is a low pressure unit. I will report back on this as my MK 2 arrives next week.
Goes to show that top end TTs don’t have to look like an oil rig. Never heard of this brand before but if I was in market it would be just the thing.
 
I’d like to see Nagra make a small turntable that’s in keeping with their history, maybe like a modern day TD124. I’m sure they could produce another turntable for their Classic range of electronics.

Agreed. When I think of Nagra I inevitably think of the classic portable tape machines which are just as beautiful as they are compact and well engineered. Something with a small footprint like a TD-124 would have fit the original brand aesthetic and ethos far better to my mind.
 


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