Cav
pfm Member
Why are you so coy? You how old I am; you are the forum owner.
Rather than pursue this and give you an excuse to ban me, let me just say that where Trades Union are concerned you are as wrong as a person can be. Trade Unicorns - QED.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V
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Rather than pursue this and give you an excuse to ban me, let me just say that where Trades Union are concerned you are as wrong as a person can be. Trade Unicorns - QED.
Tony L
Administrator
Why would I know that? I genuinely have no idea as you haven’t filled out that detail on your public profile.
PS Again a 23% uptake doesn’t suggest mass relevance. I’m sure things feel different to you after a lifetime working in the public sector, but the vast majority of us (around 83%) work in the private sector. 77% of people have no link to a Trade Union.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
If trade unions are so irrelevant why do they still get blamed for so much?
Tony L
Administrator
I’m not sure they do. There’s some legitimate push-back against Tube disruption etc, and they wound me right up too when I lived there as it prevented my getting to work and cost me money (self employed have no buffer, if we don’t get to work, we don’t get paid). By saying that I’m pretty sure public opinion is very much on the side of NHS workers, teachers etc. As obviously it should be.
Most of the discussion and friction we get to see is internal between the Labour Party and the Trade Union movement. From my perspective that’s 100% a ‘them’ thing, not a ‘me’ thing. It is an endless internalised battle between two entities that have absolutely no bearing on my life. My problem is that this endless factionalism and in-fighting then becomes the story and as a result deflects attention from regressive Tory policies, incompetence and corruption and effectively sucks all air out of political discussion. This is a reason I now view Labour as a destructive force in British politics. They are but a sideshow that deflects attention away from systemic failure and the nation’s collapse into elite right-wing oligarch rule. Even now with the country a post-Brexit post-Tory covid-riddled dumpster fire Labour are still arguing about Trade Unions and bloody Corbyn. FFS. Idiots. The rest of us honestly don’t give a shit about this. There are actually some real issues out here that need attending to.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Well, it would be worth caring about IF they could manage to succeed in changing the party AND then get elected on a suitably radical basis and change the way things are.
But I agree with you that this seems pretty unlikely. The mild-right have and will dominate the LP. And with the aid of the Daily Hate will keep that grip. The leadership make the rules by which people in the LP gain power to determine how it behaves. Thus it has long become a self-perpetuating clique at the top, using the hope of the rest to keep themselves there.
Similarly, TUs have largely morphed into just 2 or 3 'mega-unions' run, again, quite often by people who talk 'left' but act 'right'. They still can do good things, but aren't all what they should be. Again, sometimes rather dodgy behaviour at the top, as covered ad naus by PE.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Well, it seems to me that you tend to take any opportunity to knock Trade Unions, and on some of it I agree with you, but you also raise another issue, that is public support for nurses and teachers.
Yes, when asked if the support nurses and teachers the public, and for that matter even the most right wing Tories will say yes. Some will even walk to their front door and applaud and band pots. But they do not support any measure to improve the pay or more important the working conditions of nurses and teachers. When it comes to supporting nurses and teachers with a real improvement in conditions, the public opinion has stuck two fingers up to nurses and teachers.
The schizophrenia is at the heart of the problems we face as a society. Public Opinion is sympathetic to leftish ideas of social justice, but still votes for right wing economic conservativism
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Sorry, but that supports my view that when asked if teachers and nurses should be treated better, 60% of people say yes. The point is that when it comes to actually voting for it in a general election, the only poll that really counts when it comes to implementing improvements, the votes were not there.
As I said previously, public opinion might be sympathetic to progressive social justice issues when asked, they might even clap and bang pots for progressive issues when asked, but when push comes to shove, they vote with regressive economic conservatism
Tony L
Administrator
I’m obviously not getting my point across well. It is nuanced and I’m trying to provide the perspective of someone who’s life/work experience is maybe more typical of the modern world. pfm aside, the longest I’ve ever worked anywhere is 18 months. I’ve been made redundant four times. I have experienced the transience and turbulence of employment of the modern world. I’m really trying to provide a counterpoint to older folk here who worked in environments where Trade Unions existed, worked at careers for decades, even their whole life. The majority of people never get that opportunity these days, and I’d argue many of us actively don’t want it. Change can be interesting!
I suspect (due to poor writing ability) I occasionally come across as angry, which is absolutely not the case. I’m gently taking the piss much of the time. I’ve had a very odd working life, but I’d change very little in hindsight. I learned early on to be very independent (it came naturally, I always have been), to trust nothing, and to create my own opportunities. As such I’ve done many entirely different things, none of which I’m “qualified” to do, and I’ve done most of them quite well. I’ve ended up fairly comfortable and debt-free doing exactly what I want when I want to do it. Not many folk can say that. I am in no way “jealous” of TU members, which was an accusation made upthread somewhere!
I am not “attacking” Trade Unions. I am just trying to point out for many of us they simply do not exist on our map. It is why I used the phrase Trade Unicorns as I’ve never seen a unicorn either. Just view it as a counterpoint and don’t assume that Trade Unionism applies to the fractured and diverse employment life most entering the job market today can expect. The mass labour/“jobs for life” mindset of the early to mid 20th century no longer exists. We live in an entirely different world now, and I’m certainly very grateful for that.
You are framing this as an MMT argument and in fairness that isn’t on anyone’s map as long as no major party is articulating it. No way in hell will either Conservative nor Labour do so, it will never exist in either manifesto, so you should be arguing for systemic political reform (the implementation of an accountable democracy). That is the start of everything, and to my mind it will only have a chance if Labour keep getting wiped out and grasp they are no longer a major political force. They strike me as pretty thick, but even so I suspect they’ll be arguing for PR after another couple of electoral wipe-outs.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Not quite. That would assume that when people put their 'x' in the box in a GE, all they're voting on is NHS staff and teachers' pay and . That's not the case.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Yes, of course people vote for multiple reasons in a GE, but if their vote in a GE contradicts their vote in an opinion poll, it does question the value and relevance of the opinion poll, or the opinion of those polled!
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I’m not making an MMT argument here, just pointing out that public opinion might be progressive on matters of social justice, but still vote for tried and trusted economic conservatism that is regressive.
That in a nutshell is the problem facing the left generally and Labour specifically. Labour’s choice is to become more and more regressive in search of votes, which a certain mindset (yours and mine?) finds a bit bonkers.
(That said, MMT is quite progressive while conservative economics are ideologically regressive, but that is a separate argument unless we ask why people feel safer voting for regression rather than looking forwards?)
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Just because a person thinks nurses should be paid more, it doesn't automatically follow they vote for the candidate who stands for that.
I agree with you that the support doesn't get translated to GE votes but all that means is that NHS / Teacher pay was not high up on most of voters' list of priorities in 2015/17/19. Apologies for going down this rabbit hole but the GE result on multiple factors does not mean the polling is wrong on that single subject.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
All I’m saying is that if Mr and Mrs Bloggs next door talk about supporting nurses and teachers, then vote to take away support for nurses and teachers, their talk, their opinions, and their clapping and banging on a Thursday evening do not add up to anything worthwhile. If their talk is contradicted by their actions, then their talk is meaningless and Mr and Mrs Bloggs are Tory bastards devoid of a moral compass or principle
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
It’s well-known that people aren’t entirely honest when answering opinion poll questions. I’ve never personally been asked to participate, but Mrs H worked for Gallup briefly, and often the answers given were inconsistent, if not contradictory.
As well as hypocrisy, there’s the cognitive dissonance between ‘nurses should be paid more’ and ‘I should pay more taxes’. There’s also the not necessarily unjustified assumption that higher taxes won’t result in better public services, or better pay for nurses.
As well as hypocrisy, there’s the cognitive dissonance between ‘nurses should be paid more’ and ‘I should pay more taxes’. There’s also the not necessarily unjustified assumption that higher taxes won’t result in better public services, or better pay for nurses.
Tony L
Administrator
There are endless examples of Labour shooting their foot off. Many, many lost feet. A key one being that by not very forcefully opposing Brexit they have become shackled to it and all the right-wing sentiment it has stirred up. It is fascinating and highly depressing to compare England to Scotland where a far more progressive and radical political alternative exists. Here Labour are still wrestling in the shit with the Tories, Farage and UKIP trying to figure out how many staggeringly huge Union Flags one should have in a home office for a Zoom meeting. Once a party is even acknowledging that demographic it is incapable of any sensible political discussion. An example being they even attempted to argue against Priti Patel *from the right* about immigrants in the channel. WTAF.
I suspect we can define the three ages/ongoing decline of Labour as:
a) Pre-Blair. The Labour Party as created. The political wing of the Trade Union movement with a clear voice and ideology. Attlee and Wilson leading the most successful governments of the party’s history. Agree with them or not, we all knew what they were and what they believed in.
b) The Blair-era. The only other time the party has ever held power in its 120 year history, and it did so by sacrificing most of the ideals it was built upon and carries the shame of following a hard-right Republican administration into two entirely unnecessary wars and much death and destruction.
c) Post-Gillian Duffy. The modern Labour Party. An entity finds itself in a state of constant paralysis and factionalism on every practical or ideological issue from nationalism right through to its Trade Union roots and internal structures. A meaningless focus-group-driven brandname that has changed hands and product portfolio so many times over the decades the end-user is clueless as to what it even exists for.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I see the history of the Labour as more of a continuum rather than disparate periods in time.
Labour has always struggled with the tensions between challenging the incumbent forces that represent traditional values, and representing change. The arguments between standing by principles and compromising to gain power were there at the beginning. It is significant that the trend of Labour compromise with the establish forces of tradition was only reversed after the huge social disruption of two World Wars. There was the threat of social revolution before WWI which the forces of tradition felt it had to compromise with (albeit to as minimal a degree as possible and against much internal opposition) and after WWII the Tories had to compromise with the decade for Social reform provokes by the fear of mass unemployment from the the pre war years.
Outside the two World Wars, the story has been one of Labour compromise with the Tories with one small blip under Corbyn that was brought down a Labour Party so entrenched in compromise that it saw change as a threat as much as Tories do.
All of which adds up to a conclusion that the British electorate is open to change in extraordinary circumstances, but for the most part sides with conservatism, tradition and continuity.
Tony L
Administrator
Again I’d cite the SNP as proof of concept that a clearly focused and coherent progressive-left party can really do well in the UK. A such I blame Labour alone, and absolutely not the electorate, for Labour’s failure. Corbyn was clearly part of that failure, as was Milliband before him, and it appears Starmer after. The reality remains the Tories never get much over 40% of the vote even when they are at their strongest and Labour have placed themselves on the ropes. A clear majority of voters vote against Tory rule and that vote is split almost entirely across progressive parties.
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