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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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Jim Audiomisc said:
Your first statement returns FALSE now, I'm afraid. The development of autonomous undersea 'gliders' means these can be used in flocks to find subs and simply follow them about, surfacing every now and then to network via satellites. So a strategic foe know where they are to drop a pointy object on them. They are now targets.

The UK already has a variety of nuclear devices for airborne delivery, etc. The issue is now one of choosing a suitable set of devices and platforms. Again, can be a mix of autonomous flocks (cruise missiles, etc) and/or manned aircraft, or small ballistic, or surface craft like small ships as carriers. These days eveything is a target, so number, diversity, co-ordination, and stealth are the issues. Not faith in having 3 or 4 magic platforms that can 'hide' but are big and move relatively slowly.
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I am a long way from being convinced.
 
Enfield boy said:
Yebbut, subs etc are big ticket items to help with the re-distribution of (our) wealth.
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There is more to it, they aren’t about re-distribution of wealth at all. They have been a thing for ages, I was on one way back in 1979, for example.
 
A few people get very wealthy selling military hardware to govts. Many more are made poorer by paying for it (the taxpayer) or by being the ultimate recipient, Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis etc. Nukes are just the most extreme example.
 
Yes, but they exist and their primary purpose isn’t transfer of wealth, there are plenty of ways of doing that, as demonstrated by the tories here in the UK.
 
Seanm said:
People reasonably asking what the alternative is, and Unite’s change of direction offers some clues:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ion-backer-says-it-will-cut-political-funding

I mean, alternative not so much to Labour as to supporting Labour. Unite here are making their own plans and asking Labour to support-*them*. They have the heft to make that meaningful.
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It still tickles me that The Guardian claimed Starmer would be "relieved" by Sharon Graham's victory - shows how clueless they are.

Anyway, this is a significant development, and a good example of progressive politics beyond the Labour Party. Unite donated £3 million to Labour's 2019 election campaign (more than half of the total, I think).

Depends how big the cut is but it looks like Starmer is going to need all the wealthy donors he can get.
 
It is interesting. How did the unions respond to Blair? I can’t remember as I’ve never really had that much interest in Labour. Maybe Starmer’s “strategy” (assuming such a thing exists) is targeting Tory seats alienated by the corruption, criminality and racism of Johnson’s new Trump Tories plus the poor handling of C19 and may even view friction with the unions as a win. I’ve no idea.
 
droodzilla said:
It still tickles me that The Guardian claimed Starmer would be "relieved" by Sharon Graham's victory - shows how clueless they are.

Anyway, this is a significant development, and a good example of progressive politics beyond the Labour Party. Unite donated £3 million to Labour's 2019 election campaign (more than half of the total, I think).

Depends how big the cut is but it looks like Starmer is going to need all the wealthy donors he can get.
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I'm struggling to see the joy in this, Unison can sponsor and fund whoever they like. Presumably they prefer the Tories in power, as they seem to be the main beneficiaries of this decision made on behalf of their members.

Let's hope the members are all as happy with that as you and Sean, presumably they were consulted.
 
SteveS1 said:
I'm struggling to see the joy in this, Unison can sponsor and fund whoever they like. Presumably they prefer the Tories in power, as they seem to be the main beneficiaries of this decision made on behalf of their members.

Let's hope the members are all as happy with that as you and Sean, presumably they were consulted.
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Unison has to consider how best to use it’s money to the benefit of its members interests.

The take away here has to be that Unison feels that the Labour Party no longer represents the interests of members of a trade union, no longer represents the interest of workers.

That the Labour Party no longer represents ordinary working people should be the central concern
 
SteveS1 said:
I'm struggling to see the joy in this, Unison can sponsor and fund whoever they like. Presumably they prefer the Tories in power, as they seem to be the main beneficiaries of this decision made on behalf of their members.

Let's hope the members are all as happy with that as you and Sean, presumably they were consulted.
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It’s Unite, and Graham recently won the leadership, against the odds, on a platform of withdrawal from Westminster politics. She did so by campaigning hard on the ground: she was the “grassroots” candidate. I’d say she has a strong mandate as these things go.

Why “joy”? I expressed interest and approval.
 
ks.234 said:
That the Labour Party no longer represents ordinary working people should be the central concern
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I suspect the trade unions are looking as tired and obsolete as Labour in many ways. A quick google search suggests only 23% of working people are a member of one and most of that is in the public sector. I’d certainly not define 23% as being in anyway representative of the working population. It’s less than a quarter.
 
Brian said:
I am a long way from being convinced.
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Spend some time looking into the development of glider drones, flocking, AI, etc, by both civil science and the military. For obvious reasons not all of the second category will be available. But if you have any familiarity with mil RandD during the last few decades you can fill in the dots.

Also look at blue-green lasers and sat observations of sea-surface patterns, etc.
 
Tony L said:
I suspect the trade unions are looking as tired and obsolete as Labour in many ways. A quick google search suggests only 23% of working people are a member of one and most of that is in the public sector. I’d certainly not define 23% as being in anyway representative of the working population. It’s less than a quarter.
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Perhaps if they were less in thrall to a Westminster dinosaur which nowadays seems to actively want to undermine them, and instead used their considerable resources to campaign forcefully directly on behalf of workers, they’d be more relevant and potentially grow - and maybe even achieve some positive change.
 
Tony L said:
I suspect the trade unions are looking as tired and obsolete as Labour in many ways. A quick google search suggests only 23% of working people are a member of one and most of that is in the public sector. I’d certainly not define 23% as being in anyway representative of the working population. It’s less than a quarter.
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I'm not sure that is a sign that people don't *want* to join a Union. More likely that they get 'gig' jobs and are a part of the army of the 'self employed' (sic) because that's the only job they can find. Joining a union would then promptly mean no work being 'offerred'.

Ideal from the viewpoint of vulture capital. Have the workers compete to lower their own 'cost' to the 'employer'.

Goes with wealth becoming owned-via-offshore-company-to-dodge-tax tricks. Thus beyond easy recovery by politicial means. Particularly when the new rich and the Tories are joined at the wallet.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Also look at blue-green lasers and sat observations of sea-surface patterns, etc.
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I remember 30 years ago watching Sea King helicopters over Loch Linnhe conducting what I was told was a submarine surface disturbance experiment. It sounded like it didn’t come to anything but ‘they would say that, wouldn’t they’…
 
FWIW I did some work on drone flocking controlled from a 'set back' human platform a few decades ago for part of MoD. But it was obvous even then that the same could be done underwater. And this was long before even simple AI came into the scene. The sea glider drones used by research scientists can operate for many days between recharging. And I suspect future ones will be able to self recharge from surface waves or sunlight.

Consider how many of them you could build and deploy for just 1/10th of the cost of a Trident sub.
 
ks.234 said:
Unison has to consider how best to use it’s money to the benefit of its members interests.

The take away here has to be that Unison feels that the Labour Party no longer represents the interests of members of a trade union, no longer represents the interest of workers.

That the Labour Party no longer represents ordinary working people should be the central concern
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The take away is that in response to feeling the Labour party no longer represents the interests of trade union members, their answer is to help the Tories.

I guess it will be good for business, the Tories will certainly make sure their members have plenty to seek union assistance with.
 
Seanm said:
It’s Unite, and Graham recently won the leadership, against the odds, on a platform of withdrawal from Westminster politics. She did so by campaigning hard on the ground: she was the “grassroots” candidate. I’d say she has a strong mandate as these things go.

Why “joy”? I expressed interest and approval.
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That's OK then, let's hope the members enjoy it.
 
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