richardg
Admonishtrator
It's a bit blurred to be honest, Sue.
Domestic vaccine passports
- Thread starter Deejay
- Start date
I voted no. The availability of vaccines is not universal: it is regulated by government policy, and the distribution of a limited resource already creates inequality. A domestic vaccine passport system would just exacerbate that inequality and damage the public support that any vaccination programme requires. Remember that those who are not vaccinated now are, in effect, exposing themselves to higher risk of infection in order to allow those at higher risk of serious illness to have lower risk of infection. This targeting of limited resources to those who need it is, overall, a desirable thing and it's how a just society should function - but you don't gloat after someone has done you a favour, and that's what this whole idea smacks of.
Internationally, I don't have any issue with states requiring proof of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry: it is just another disease on a long list of entry requirements. I remember I had to have a Yellow Fever jab before going to Hong Kong (or maybe it was Japan - it was the same trip) - I didn't consider that to be an intrusion on my civil rights. I got a little card to keep with me, but that card didn't matter, as the information was linked with my passport number anyway. In other words, once again lots of people of limited experience getting het up about something they think is new, but isn't.
I think there will be a much bigger problem in the opposite group: those who could have, but did not, accept the vaccine. For example, what do employers do with staff who have refused vaccination (as is their right), but then try to assert a right to remain in a job where their refusal will adversely affect the health of others?
Internationally, I don't have any issue with states requiring proof of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry: it is just another disease on a long list of entry requirements. I remember I had to have a Yellow Fever jab before going to Hong Kong (or maybe it was Japan - it was the same trip) - I didn't consider that to be an intrusion on my civil rights. I got a little card to keep with me, but that card didn't matter, as the information was linked with my passport number anyway. In other words, once again lots of people of limited experience getting het up about something they think is new, but isn't.
I think there will be a much bigger problem in the opposite group: those who could have, but did not, accept the vaccine. For example, what do employers do with staff who have refused vaccination (as is their right), but then try to assert a right to remain in a job where their refusal will adversely affect the health of others?
sean99
pfm Member
This is certainly a problem for employers to wrestle with, but I think they have little choice but to exclude the intentionally unvaccinated from the office,/ workplace, or at least force them to wear a mask and work in a separate office.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Another example, in Malaysia all food handlers have to be vaccinated against typhoid. Penalty for non compliance is up to two years prison.
mansr
Objectionist
Seems like a reasonable precaution in that part of the world.
mandryka
pfm Member
There are only 5% more people vaccinated in France than in the UK. I conclude that the UK does not need passes to motivate people to get vaccinated. Their function is to control the movement of the unvaccinated population.
The number of cases in the UK is higher than in France, but per se that is not very important - nearly everyone who gets it in the UK shakes it off easily.
The great majority of those who end up in hospital have declined the offer of a vaccine. The view of the Government is this: they have made their own bed, and they made it freely, so they will have to lie on it. I am sympathetic to this view, while acknowledging that the concept of freedom is very problematic.
Some people finish up in hospital despite being vaccinated - because of bad health or bad luck. So two fundamental questions are:
1. By how much, if at all, will vaccine passes protect this small group? I don’t have an answer to this question,
2. Does the answer to (1) justify their introduction, or are there socially better means to get the same effect (e.g.boosters)? I don’t have an answer to this question, but I will say this: I fear their introduction, for three reasons:
(i) they will be hard to remove
(iI) the data may be abused
(iii) they may set a precedent for other surveillance and punishment initiatives to get the population to do what the government thinks is best.
Bananahead
pfm Member
(i) I don't want them removing. I don't want to mix with idiots or the infected.
(ii) What data? None is being collected.
(iii) Surveillance? Punishment?
(ii) What data? None is being collected.
(iii) Surveillance? Punishment?
richardg
Admonishtrator
A few months down the line, Sue....https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/01/eu-should-consider-mandatory-vaccination-says-von-der-leyen
Are her intentions clearer now?
mandryka
pfm Member
The problem as far as I see it is that the people who don’t want these divisive and liberticide measures which are emerging have nothing to say other than they don’t want them. Apart from Boris. Maybe some of them would prefer to see Europe in a long hard lockdown for everyone - but that risks being even more divisive IMO and would no doubt have serious human consequences.
More power to Boris I say, if he can steer Britain through these dangerous times without right wing authoritarianism. He’s our beacon on light, our saviour, our hope, our guide on the moderate path - the left are nowhere to be seen.
guey
pfm Member
This is ironic, right?
kensalriser
pfm Member
Presumably you are also very much against the Police, Crime, Sentencing, and Courts Bill and the Elections Bill for the same laudable anti authoritarian reasons?
mandryka
pfm Member
It’s hyperbole. And it’s paradoxical. It’s a paradox that Boris, establishment Tory par excellence, is an an anti-authoritarian. But, compared with what we’re starting to see emerge, he is! And that’s why I label him moderate, at least in this domain. He’s avoiding the extreme positions of Austria, Greece, Germany and elsewhere. And I’m glad he is.
No I’m talking about this instance, covid. Face that one in this thread please - he may well be reprehensible in other areas, but here, in his management of the pandemic throughout 2021, he’s made some very bold and commendable decisions IMO.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Johnson has been utterly hopeless, corrupt, indecisive, deceitful, reckless and indolent throughout. Where the government has made correct decisions it is only because it has been dragged belatedly and apparently against its instinct. Are you a member of his family?
mandryka
pfm Member
The good policies and decisions I would point to include
1. Increase the gap between the first two doses
2. Vaccinate quickly, efficiently and in a very structured way.
3. Develop an open relationship between policy makers and the public, so trust was not eroded.
4. Boost all adults
Richard Lines
pfm Member
It isn't April the 1st is it??? How many COVID-19 "U" turns has this government made???
Regards
Richard
richardg
Admonishtrator
5. Irritate the hell out of Macron
farfromthesun
pfm Member
He likely didn't devise nor decide on any of these.
mandryka
pfm Member
In 2021. They got much better in 2021.
For all I know you're correct.