What is sublime?

[martin clark]

VA (total real & reactive) and actual watts (real power dissipated, and the bit your are billed for ) are nothing like the same measure. For reasons this margin is too small to record.*

Don't feel guilty, at all. It's a very tiny thing in the great scheme of waste. Enjoy your music.


* with apols to Fermat.

 

[darrenyeats]

'Sublime' is what happens when a solid idea transforms to masses of hot air on an audio forum without passing through the intermediate stage of critical reception.

Anyway, ATC's class-A claim has always had a whiff of ashley talks crap - they - the integrated, which is the same basic design as the active speaker amp packs designed iircby Tim Isaacs, and solid - are mosfet amps: and as such need to run a bit of healthy bias out of necessity, but certainly not enought to meet the headline claim: c. 120-150ma/output pair/ channel would be about right.

I suspect someone long ago spotted the amp packs might dissipate 30-40w /channel in total at idle and conflated it with idea that since that's about a third of the rated output, so they are class A up that far - which certainly is not true. It could just about be an honest mistake at marketing level... just.

According to Martin Colloms/Hi-Fi Critic's 2019 review of active 50s, 90W is drawn at idle per speaker. This is the normal "Mk. 4" amp pack (not the SE amp which is more biased to class A).

Martin wrote switching off when not in use is a good idea, I agree.

 

[hifinutt]

Herb , it's a good question..What is sublime . To me it's that liquid sound that just sounds very real.it is not like painstripper but still has detail and texture ..but not so overpowering that you can't listen for too long

 

[Tony L]

According to Martin Colloms/Hi-Fi Critic's 2019 review, 90W is drawn at idle per speaker. This is the normal "Mk 4" amp pack (not the SE amp which is further biased to class A).

For comparison the Pass Aleph 3 draws 250W, so 125W for each 30W (8 Ohms) class A channel. Surely an ATC active speaker amp pack (I thought we were discussing the integrated!) is a three channel amp and active crossover, so that has to be class A/B.

 

[darrenyeats]

Of course. Just pointing out the figure is apparently 90W per speaker (not 30-40W which was mentioned for the active amp pack).

 

[marshanp]

I remember motoring along in my noisy Reliant three wheeler and On Wenlock Edge by RVW came on the radio. I was transported elsewhere, and still am when I play the CD.

Shropshire and its blue remembered hills have inspired much sublimity... which is one of the main reasons I retired here.

You may not know Ivor Gurney's Ludlow and Teme. I suspect that you would like it.

PS Of currently available versions, the Hyperion one with Adrian Thompson is the one I would choose...

 

[ryder]

I presume it's the ATC SIA2-150. The weight of the amp is only 18.3kg / 40.26lbs although it outputs 150W. True or proper Class A amps don't weigh that light with that kind of power output. The weight is usually in excess of 25kg.

Call me shallow but if I were looking to purchase a new Class AB or A amplifier, the first thing I'll look in the spec sheet is the weight and power output. Next, I'll look at the internal construction of the amp and the heat sinks. If you look at few proper Class A amps from the likes of Vitus, Pass Labs, Luxman, Accuphase (or the older Krell) you would notice that these are huge and heavy designs with large fins attached to the chassis.

 

[cj66]

@OP

Ein grünes Unterseeboot

As to the ATC integrated, I only have experience of the original which did run quite hot. I've no idea if the new casework changed that at all or how many watts, or not, are in A class. It's a damn fine amp though! IIRC it was only 1500 sqiddlies back then which made it stonkingly good value for the sonic performance.
My 15w A class power amp ( another forum group project DIY jobby ) has overrated sinking and runs marginally over warm. It's PSU sink gets hotter though, was thinking of up-speccing that.

Hmmm, Ashley-talk, he was already with AVI when I was selling both brands, can't remember the ATC rep's name of the time, tall guy, ex Technics. He was a collector of notable audio products over the years, he had a large garage full of interesting stuff. Very passionate about the ATC product, technically minded and a nice chap. Who do they have now doing the rounds?

I do like A class amps and "sublime", is a good descriptor in my book. For me it's the sweet spot between A/B and valves, taking the best of both with some pixie dust added.

If I ever buy a new amp I'll be giving @CJ14 a call for one of his beasties!

 

[John Phillips]

... Anyway, ATC's class-A claim has always had a whiff of ashley talks crap - they - the integrated, which is the same basic design as the active speaker amp packs designed iircby Tim Isaacs, and solid - are mosfet amps: and as such need to run a bit of healthy bias out of necessity, but certainly not enought to meet the headline claim: c. 120-150ma/output pair/ channel would be about right.

I suspect someone long ago spotted the amp packs might dissipate 30-40w /channel in total at idle and conflated it with idea that since that's about a third of the rated output, so they are class A up that far - which certainly is not true. It could just about be an honest mistake at marketing level... just.

Yes. The claim is clearly rubbish. I couldn't find an origin for it when I looked a long time ago after seeing it and having my BS-o-meter wrap its needle around the end-stop.

My three-way ATC actives measure 50W each side at idle (cf 90W rated). The substantial heatsinks (about 8" tall, 7" wide with fins that protrude 3" out of the back) only get comfortably warm to the touch. It's a long time since my amp-building days but that cannot add up to either "Class A to 2/3 output power" or even the lesser "Class A to 2/3 output voltage".

My favourite theory is that a journalist mis-understood something he saw or was told (as you write), published his mis-understanding and started a meme that has been reproduced many times by other journalists copying it without question into their own publications. I have seen other mysterious claims that contradict my experience reproduced many times too. So much for good audio journalism.

 

[John Phillips]

In recent exchanges I see people describe the sound of Class A amps as sublime. My thoroughly brutal ATC integrated is Class A for 2/3 of its 150 wpc output according to ATC. I guess that it is not true class A or it would run hotter than it does. To me sublime equals boring, that is what I hear at dealers and shows.

I think that words in descriptions can be over-interpreted.

IME, the words people use to describe what they hear mean something to them for sure, but that meaning often is not shared by others even though many seem to think others "obviously" understand their words and vice-versa.

More specifically, the words people use to describe what they hear seem to me to often mix up matters that I think of as characteristics of music with those I think of as characteristics of equipment or sound.

Finally, what people like is always mysterious and not validly questioned. To me, it does not need any (often spurious technical) justification even though, strangely to me, many seem to feel the need to justify their taste.

 

[chartz]

For me, ‘sublime’ is all about my ESL57’s powered by the big mighty double mono SE-A3 (Technics’s go on Class A – which isn’t).
They don’t like Spotify because sublime becomes just ‘lime. No sub.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Finally, what people like is always mysterious and not validly questioned. To me, it does not need any (often spurious technical) justification even though, strangely to me, many seem to feel the need to justify their taste.

It's like asking someone 'How can you possibly find [insert name of comedian] funny?', or 'why do you like playing golf?'. De gustibus and all that.

 

[herb]

Herb , it's a good question..What is sublime . To me it's that liquid sound that just sounds very real.it is not like painstripper but still has detail and texture ..but not so overpowering that you can't listen for too long

Yes I know what you mean having run ESLs for 14 years a long time ago. I am lucky that my system has none of the paintstripper sound, despite the CDX2.2, but has serious dynamics. My average listening time is 4 hours most days without problems, but sublime implies a more relaxed sound to me.

 

[herb]

Shropshire and its blue remembered hills have inspired much sublimity... which is one of the main reasons I retired here.

You may not know Ivor Gurney's Ludlow and Teme. I suspect that you would like it.

PS Of currently available versions, the Hyperion one with Adrian Thompson is the one I would choose...

Thanks I will check out your recommendation. I am currently going though a Delius box at present, I think that those CDs are the nearest I get to sublime.

 

[herb]

@OP

Ein grünes Unterseeboot

As to the ATC integrated, I only have experience of the original which did run quite hot. I've no idea if the new casework changed that at all or how many watts, or not, are in A class. It's a damn fine amp though! IIRC it was only 1500 sqiddlies back then which made it stonkingly good value for the sonic performance.
My 15w A class power amp ( another forum group project DIY jobby ) has overrated sinking and runs marginally over warm. It's PSU sink gets hotter though, was thinking of up-speccing that.

Hmmm, Ashley-talk, he was already with AVI when I was selling both brands, can't remember the ATC rep's name of the time, tall guy, ex Technics. He was a collector of notable audio products over the years, he had a large garage full of interesting stuff. Very passionate about the ATC product, technically minded and a nice chap. Who do they have now doing the rounds?

Thanks, I had forgotten how close together were/are the ATC and AVI factories.

I do like A class amps and "sublime", is a good descriptor in my book. For me it's the sweet spot between A/B and valves, taking the best of both with some pixie dust added.

If I ever buy a new amp I'll be giving @CJ14 a call for one of his beasties!

 

[Beobloke]

Paying homage to the Uxbridge English Dictionary:

"Sublime" = Underneath a green citrus fruit.

 

[darrenyeats]

Yes. The claim is clearly rubbish. I couldn't find an origin for it when I looked a long time ago after seeing it and having my BS-o-meter wrap its needle around the end-stop.

My three-way ATC actives measure 50W each side at idle (cf 90W rated). The substantial heatsinks (about 8" tall, 7" wide with fins that protrude 3" out of the back) only get comfortably warm to the touch. It's a long time since my amp-building days but that cannot add up to either "Class A to 2/3 output power" or even the lesser "Class A to 2/3 output voltage".

My favourite theory is that a journalist mis-understood something he saw or was told (as you write), published his mis-understanding and started a meme that has been reproduced many times by other journalists copying it without question into their own publications. I have seen other mysterious claims that contradict my experience reproduced many times too. So much for good audio journalism.

I don't remember reading/hearing claim of 2/3 class A in regard to regular amp packs, disclaimer, my memory is often unreliable. Maybe for the SE amps though?

 

[gustavm]

VA (total real & reactive) and actual watts (real power dissipated, and the bit your are billed for ) are nothing like the same measure. For reasons this margin is too small to record.*

Don't feel guilty, at all. It's a very tiny thing in the great scheme of waste. Enjoy your music.


* with apols to Fermat.

You are correct of course(re Watts versus VA), but I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that they would be close in this case, i.e. that the significant current-drain per mains cycle would make the input impedance of the primary look a bit like an on-off resistor. But I guess there is also a quadrature component of current associated with the alternating magnetic flux of the transformer. I havn't tried to work out the relative effects! Anyway the SIA2-150 (mk1) does get pretty hot when idling.

 

[JTC]

FWIW my class A integrated (to 30w/8ohm) burns through about 280w idling, weighs about 30Kg and, um, sounds sublime (if you insist). It also gets pretty warm!

My ATC100 actives never got anywhere near as warm and used a lot less power IIRC.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I think the sublime is in the music, and either the system renders the music sublime, or it doesn't/can't. If it doesn't, it's not a sublime system. Innit.