Linn LP12 vs Digital

[onlyconnect]

I would even go so far as saying that the more you improve your turntable, the worse a badly mastered record will sound. When it comes to older, more worn records though, the reverse is true. I have albums such as Jimi Hendrix - Smash hits, that are over 50 years old, have been played on a variety of groove crunchers and still sound superb!

Complex question. Xerxes owner here. It gets the best out of most records I think. Though there was something about those old 60s all-in-one turntables, or juke boxes for that matter; they aren't hi-fi but they seemed to tune out the noise somehow and just play music.

Tim

 

[wylton]

Complex question. Xerxes owner here. It gets the best out of most records I think. Though there was something about those old 60s all-in-one turntables, or juke boxes for that matter; they aren't hi-fi but they seemed to tune out the noise somehow and just play music.

That's the exact point I'm trying to make! You end up with a budget system, whereupon every thing sounds the same! That's why I have the Stanton ST150/RB202/Carbon, because it's great for playing those old battered 45's!

I agree with that except that for me, that's not my definition of an improvement.

It really comes down to what you value, Hi-Fi or music. My priority to have a system that will let me enjoy any music I like, and I largely have that. If you 'improve' your system so that only the best recording sound good you are going to be ignoring huge swathes of our musical heritage and artistic expression. Some music was deliberately recorded to include distortion, it was an artistic choice. I understand that and for me it's part of what the artists are saying, I want to hear it.

I've heard and I've had systems that only sounded good with good recordings and it's not for me. I'd run a P1 and a pair of bookshelf's before I'd want to go there again.

I Kind of know where you are coming from, but surely, if a producer goes out of his way to get a good sound and the engineer does his best to get as much of that as possible onto the final LP/CD/Tape/stream, then you want to hear it? Surely, you don't want all of your records to sound the same? IMHO, that's what a budget system does; if you are happy with a P1 and a pair of bookshelf's, then there's nothing at all wrong with that. I remember growing up with a Dansette record player & it was a fantastic introduction to the world of music, but later on, I discovered that there were machines out there, that could make your music sound better & that's what I wanted!

 

[chris@panteg]

I thought that the OP wanted to get a more open and airy presentation from vinyl playback ?
Anyway in my opinion there are a couple of ways to achieve this.
1 look at different arm/cartridge combinations for the LP12.
2 try a different turntable? One of the reasons I went for another Voyd turntable was simply because of this open and airy presentation that the OP wants , and it has it in spades plus a tremendous sense of drive and dynamics.
I think that you tend to get this airy presentation with Acrylic or Lexan platter decks.
Higher mass decks tend to sound thicker and darker in my opinion of course.

Horses for courses.

 

[sonddek]

If money is no object and you have a large collection of vinyl then this route can easily be taken, otherwise I would suggest for mere mortals on a limited budget, and that budget can be in excess of £10k the best option is to get your digital/streaming done correctly, and this is not cheap. Just look at the music you want to listen to or buy, is it freely available on vinyl, if not how are you going to be able to listen to it.
By all accounts, use a tt so you can still listen to your treasured vinyl collection, but investing more on the tt, I don't think is a wise move.

OTOH, this morning, during breakfast I put on Ein Heldenleben conducted by Haitink, which was recommended to me by my physics teacher when I was 15, the physics teacher who told me that the A-level syllabus can be written on an envelope, and that you can always derive the equations you need rather than remembering them, and whose influence on me, unknown to him, continues to this day. That record - the very one which I bought in 1984. It has never sounded so wonderful as it did this morning, so there are thousands of reasons to continue improving your turntable system, regardless of whether streaming can trigger the same tangible recollections of places and people.

I've just recalled that that teacher was also an owner of a Krapri. He may even have influenced me to buy mine. Old friends.

 

[Timcat]

I've just recalled that that teacher was also an owner of a Krapri. He may even have influenced me to buy mine. Old friends.

Which one? Assuming a V6, is it an Essex or Cologne engine?

 

[dave charlton]

Surely, you don't want all of your records to sound the same? IMHO, that's what a budget system does; if you are happy with a P1 and a pair of bookshelf's, then there's nothing at all wrong with that.

Rega's System One didn't sound at all samey at the last Bristol show. Just the opposite in fact. A welcome relief from the digital onslaught elsewhere.

 

[wylton]

Rega's System One didn't sound at all samey at the last Bristol show. Just the opposite in fact. A welcome relief from the digital onslaught elsewhere.

I haven't heard that system tbh. My comment was a response to @Mr Pig 's assertion that a similar system would make all records sound good, whereas I say that it must limit the amount of detail you get from records ultimately; you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as they say. I have no doubt, btw, that Rega's System 1 is great value for money for a grand. It does remind me, back in the day, when you could walk in to a Linn or Naim room and sit there for a hour just listening to music without worrying about the hardware; I agree that's what we should all be aspiring to.

 

[adamdea]

This is a somewhat presumptuous and unhelpful comment. I like what sounds real to my ears. And not afraid to admit it if that means pleasing distortion. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned the biggest upgrade one can do for their audio is to get rid of FOMO and have self control. I thought that was an excellent advice. I'll add "trusting your own ears" to that. I've spent a lot of money and time in this hobby. But I've spent more on attending live music. I trust my ears and I know what sounds real to me. If that means an upstream gear is adding euphonic distortion, so be it. Our ears are not laboratory grade microphone. It's much more complex than that.

Regarding Lampizator: I don't have any brand loyalty (or design loyalty for that matter). I do not own the Lampizator, it was from a friend. I did own couple of Lampi dacs during their early days. I thought they sounded just ok but there are better dacs out there for less money. If anything I was biased against the Lampi but my friend convinced me to try his Lampi. According to him, the newer Lampi is much improved. I was skeptic but floored after I listened to it.

If measurement (or highest fidelity) is the way to go for DAC (or any other electronics), the budget priced Topping DAC (or similar ones from east) beats out many $10-20K DACs from established players. But boy, they do sound sterile, often harsh and nothing like real music. Same thing applies for euphonic distortion from SET, tube amp, and umm even turntables.

Sorry if my post sounded rude, but in substance (and give or take a bit of spin) I don't think your position is any different from my precis.
Incidentally I have never heard a top of the range Topping, but I have a bottom of the range one which doesn't sound sterile to me at all.

 

[John]

I had a Greenstreet in my LP12. I suspect it would be very difficult to tell it apart from a Keel. However, around that time, after listening to several Klimax Sondeks, I decided to cease spending money on my LP12 so I returned the Greenstreet. I had discovered other good decks which did not suffer from degenerative upgraditis.

If you look at the interstellar leaps in performance available with each official upgrade to the deck which already has an absolute monopoly on rhythm, tunes, and evoking excited responses from a wife in the next door room, by now it must have reached such a stratospheric standard that all other turntable manufacturers are insolvent and queues of many miles wind their way to every Linn dealer in the land.

Whereas my experience is that the audible advances of all the upgrades are marginal, sometimes worthwhile, but seldom justifying the price when Vilchur's original design flaws are still there and exposed by a £680 Technics SL-100C.

We are like the owner of a Ford Capri who has lavished a small fortune on keeping his pride and joy running since the 70s and we are addicted to the drama of urging it on, wheezing and spluttering its plucky way over the next hill as we listen, white-knuckled, to the engine for clues about what to replace next, so that we can keep up with the ugly modern junk which has just quietly flashed past. This is real driving, not that.

It's romantic, but it's mad.

Or you can do a direct comparison between the two turntables and keep the one that sounds more musical. I imagine that is what most folks who run a LP12 have done at one point or another.

I acquired a minty Technics several years back when that turntable became all the rage. I found it less musical than my Rega 2 from the same era. This is the turntable folks were saying outperformed an LP12. My recommendation is not to trust what you read on the internet. If you’re truly interested, setup the comparison and listen for yourself. Folks tend to recommend what they currently own at the time and that’s fine but it doesn’t mean you will.

 

[Mr Pig]

I haven't heard that system tbh. My comment was a response to @Mr Pig 's assertion that a similar system would make all records sound good, whereas I say that it must limit the amount of detail you get from records.

Yes, that has to be true. If you liken a turntable to a microscope, if you look close enough eventually you have to see the plastic. A good system to me is one that maximizes the music while not drawing attention to the flaws. Thankfully, you seem to be able to retrieve a lot of information without ruining the illusion but yes, a very high resolution system is going to show up the flaws in bad recordings.

 

[dogscanskate]

I had a Greenstreet in my LP12. I suspect it would be very difficult to tell it apart from a Keel. However, around that time, after listening to several Klimax Sondeks, I decided to cease spending money on my LP12 so I returned the Greenstreet. I had discovered other good decks which did not suffer from degenerative upgraditis

It has never sounded so wonderful as it did this morning, so there are thousands of reasons to continue improving your turntable system, regardless of whether streaming can trigger the same tangible recollections of places and people.

Which is it? Degenerative upgraditis (for the LP 12 of course) or "thousands of reasons to continue improving your turntable system"? You sell your tonearm as an upgrade? You had me convinced to ditch the LP 12 in favor of any deck (Technics comes to mind) that does not suffer from the need to upgrade. When is your matching deck coming out because why should I upgrade mine. You make an SL1210 look pretty appetising as it may never need to be upgraded.

 

[wylton]

Yes, that has to be true. If you liken a turntable to a microscope, if you look close enough eventually you have to see the plastic. A good system to me is one that maximizes the music while not drawing attention to the flaws. Thankfully, you seem to be able to retrieve a lot of information without ruining the illusion but yes, a very high resolution system is going to show up the flaws in bad recordings.

Excellent, I'm glad that in the end we both came to the same conclusion & ultimately seem to have the same goals for our music!

 

[sonddek]

Or you can do a direct comparison between the two turntables and keep the one that sounds more musical. I imagine that is what most folks who run a LP12 have done at one point or another.

I think you would be surprised by how many haven't done a genuinely competitive comparison, and certainly not blind. The closest I ever got to this was a three way between Klimax Sondek, Well Tempered Amadeus/XX-2/Uphorik and SL-1210/Ekos2/XX-2/Uphorik. The Klimax very slightly edged out the WT on detail but I felt it lagged behind the other two for keeping pianos in tune while being played. For me, instruments staying in tune during a sustained note is fairly important to the poignancy of the melody. I felt the SL-1210 was almost the best of both worlds - very nearly as detailed as the Klimax (Ekos2/XX-2/Uphorik v Ekos SE/Kandid/Urika?), but able to hold speed/pitch.

Most people who have got near doing this test will be comparing with a Technics arm, or dissimilar cartridges/phono stages. They may still have an internal power supply in the Technics, or they may still have half a ton of rubber bolted onto the bottom of the Technics which may have its own effect. My experience as a Sondek user of decades is that one thing that very seldom happened, if ever, was a carefully controlled head-to-head between a Sondek and its competitors.

I acquired a minty Technics several years back when that turntable became all the rage. I found it less musical than my Rega 2 from the same era. This is the turntable folks were saying outperformed an LP12. My recommendation is not to trust what you read on the internet. If you’re truly interested, setup the comparison and listen for yourself. Folks tend to recommend what they currently own at the time and that’s fine but it doesn’t mean you will.

Define "less musical". At this stage, if it were the other way round, defenders of the Sondek would blame the set-up or many other factors for why you had reached the 'wrong' conclusion. I would advise anybody wanting to find out if the SL-1200 is really as good as a Sondek to extract the power supply, unbolt the rubber base and install a Linn arm collar so that you can compare like with like by just moving your Linn arm from one deck to the other. I've done plenty of that - I ran my Ekos 2 on my Techie for about a decade - and I think that's a fair way to make the assessment, over months and years. These modifications to the SL1200 are quite modest compared to the open-heart surgery that is routine in the back-rooms of Sondek dealers, where even motors and bearings are changed regularly.

I suggest that very few are in a position to do this comparison in earnest, unbiased, and seeking the best from each deck, and so most are forced to pay heed to what they read on the internet. I still own both decks BTW.

 

[sonddek]

Which is it? Degenerative upgraditis (for the LP 12 of course) or "thousands of reasons to continue improving your turntable system"? You sell your tonearm as an upgrade? You had me convinced to ditch the LP 12 in favor of any deck (Technics comes to mind) that does not suffer from the need to upgrade. When is your matching deck coming out because why should I upgrade mine. You make an SL1210 look pretty appetising as it may never need to be upgraded.

A fair point. I'll see if I can clarify my message. I've kept my Amadeus, 301s and SL-1210 exactly the same for ten years now. Sure, I've upgraded the arms with my own design, but they still have the same motors, bearings, platters, chassises, plinths, power supplies. I've spent nothing on them and they still sound every bit as good as they did ten or twenty years ago. They don't really need upgrading, and it's not very clear how much difference could be made. Perhaps the Garrards could do with a power supply at some point, but the urge is not strong. I did turn my Amadeus motor through 90º the other day to introduce a fresh corner of the bearing. This is all very different from the upgrade industry around the Sondek where ten or fifteen thousand pounds can be spent on official upgrades producing what may or may not be a world-beater. I hope that's clearer now.

 

[k90tour]

In my time , I've had an LP12 (quite basic), a Gyrodec SE with SME IV/AT0C9 and a Technics SL1200G, on to which I fitted an ATOC9.
The Technics was easily the best of the bunch. On first listening, I thought I'd made a mistake, that it was cold, lacked energy etc.
But I now believe that it was simply uncoloured.
Having a turntable in my study turned out to be a bad idea and I'm sticking with digital.

Just saying, don't knock the Technics. many records I thought dull on the others turned out to be brilliant on the Technics.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Don't knock the Technics. many records I thought dull on the others turned out to be brilliant on the Technics.

Agreed.

 

[Mr Pig]

Though there was something about those old 60s all-in-one turntables, or juke boxes for that matter; they aren't hi-fi but they seemed to tune out the noise somehow and just play music.

Zero treble.

 

[Mullardman]

Whilst I generally find analogue v digital debates to be a bit pointless, principally for the reasons others have expressed very well in this thread., I'm grateful to the OP for articulating what it was that I could never define, or accept, about my LP12...

I am willing to spend money on LP12 upgrades. But is it possible that LP12 (or suspended turntable for that matter) will never sound that open, uncolored, agile, and airy? I think my LP12 sounds very organic and musical. But the midrange thickness is pervasive regardless of the recording and its flat sounding on busy music is the biggest issue I want to improve on.

Nail..head etc.. IMO. Thank you.

Of course the many who like the LP12 will continue, quite rightly, to do so. So please spare me the cries of 'Linn basher!!'

 

[dogscanskate]

A fair point. I'll see if I can clarify my message. I've kept my Amadeus, 301s and SL-1210 exactly the same for ten years now. Sure, I've upgraded the arms with my own design, but they still have the same motors, bearings, platters, chassises, plinths, power supplies. I've spent nothing on them and they still sound every bit as good as they did ten or twenty years ago. They don't really need upgrading, and it's not very clear how much difference could be made. Perhaps the Garrards could do with a power supply at some point, but the urge is not strong. I did turn my Amadeus motor through 90º the other day to introduce a fresh corner of the bearing. This is all very different from the upgrade industry around the Sondek where ten or fifteen thousand pounds can be spent on official upgrades producing what may or may not be a world-beater. I hope that's clearer now.

Thank you very much for your answer. If I'm not mistaken, your Supatrack Blackbird should be viewed on the market as an upgrade product, part of the upgrade industry. Since you have reiterated that The Linn is all about the upgrade path which you have deemed "degenerative", it would be foolish for an LP 12 owner to consider your tonearm as an upgrade, am I getting this right? As an LP 12 owner, it would seem to me that he is squandering his funds on degenerative upgrades. Even you have written that the upgrades may or may not be world beaters . Where do you see the market for your arm? With all due respect, most Technics owners love the tonearm it comes with as they can switch cartridges quickly and they love the sound coming from this deck. If a Linn owner asks about your arm as a possible upgrade, looking at your comments on this thread, it would make no sense to throw money on something that may or may not make it a better deck sadly.

This isn't meant to denigrate the SL1200/1210, they are great decks and I do not play the game of commenting negatively about a product that connects people to music. I hope Technics owners get the opportunity to hear an SL1200/1210 that is equipped with the Blackbird arm so they can see the true potential of their analog system and share their opinions with us. Funny thing, the only video I caught on You Tube, the Blackbird is on an LP 12 , what has the world come to lol!

 

[John]

There’s a possibility that something is not right with the setup of the turntable. For example if the top plate fixings are done up too tight it kills the sound of the deck. You don’t mention how you have the LP12 supported or if you have the Trampolin base. A poor support will degrade performance. The LP12 generally likes a light rigid support.