What did 78rpm records sound like when they were new
- Thread starter stuwils
- Start date
JTC
PFM Villager...
Would that be on shellac or vinyl? I've a 20s era gramophone (with a huge red horn) which sounds fairly similar in terms of tonality, which is surprising. Maybe that is shellac (looks like it btw) and the limitation is not the playback but the medium. I wonder what NOS 78rpm vinyl from the same era might sound like.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Shellac 78s were produced for about 60 years from the 1890s onwards using an enormous range of recording technologies i.e. electrical recording wasn't introduced until the mid 1920s. Different companies used different EQ curves. So it's hard to generalise what they sounded like new.
I'm not sure the Califone portable record player in the video is ideal.
As some of the comments on the video point out, if he's cleaned it with alcohol, as you would vinyl, he's already damaged the shellac.
I'm not sure the Califone portable record player in the video is ideal.
As some of the comments on the video point out, if he's cleaned it with alcohol, as you would vinyl, he's already damaged the shellac.
At a N.T property in London, Ham House I think they have a room with an old wind up record player with a big horn as in HMV pictures that plays 78s. On the tour they demo it and MY GOD THE SOUND WAS UNBELIEVABLE FANTASTIC. Forget those pinched representations you see in tv series. The sound I heard was as full range as you would want before thinking some thing was missing
JTC
PFM Villager...
Not sure I really buy into that. Mine is quite similar to what you describe and I'd hardly call it full-range, even though it does have some positive sonic characteristics.
maybe I exaggerate a bit as they only play for a few moments. The room was large and mostly empty so maybe contributed. But the sound was not that pinched tranny sound you hear in tv shows that make you wonder why on earth they bothered in those days. The horn was very large. OK full-range as understood by hifi people an over statement, the sound was full bodied, believable.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
wd40addict
pfm Member
78 sound quality scales with the replay system just like LPs.
The best acoustic players were the HMV re-entrants and the big horn EMGs.
The best acoustic players were the HMV re-entrants and the big horn EMGs.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Transcriptions from later (mid thirties on) can sound amazingly good, even older such as the Elgar Cello and Violin recordings are surprisingly listenable but you are playing them for the performance, not the sound quality.
The digital processing helps but it can`t put back what wasn`t there in the first place, modern techniques get the best out of the original recording.
Those modern small record players that offer a 78 facility sound pretty shit even with LPs.
The digital processing helps but it can`t put back what wasn`t there in the first place, modern techniques get the best out of the original recording.
Those modern small record players that offer a 78 facility sound pretty shit even with LPs.
slavedata
pfm Member
I have some Audiophile brand 78s from late 1940s Microgroove vinyl so used with a normal stylus. Pressed on red vinyl. Sound quality is very good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile_Records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile_Records
wd40addict
pfm Member
Fibre if you had an EMG! 
I would sum up 78s as follows:
Negatives: Surface noise, limited frequency response, fragile.
Positives: Direct cut recording at a high speed, opportunity to hear famous artists with *you* in the driving seat not some CD remastering engineer whose efforts can range from great to awful.
Well recorded 78s from the 30s on have a 'full blooded' honest sound and LPs can sound anemic in comparison. This was brought home to me once when a colleague came round and we spent most of the evening listening to 78s. At the end of the evening I put on what I'd normally consider to be a very well recorded LP to try and impress, but compared with what had gone before it sounded pretty limp!
I would sum up 78s as follows:
Negatives: Surface noise, limited frequency response, fragile.
Positives: Direct cut recording at a high speed, opportunity to hear famous artists with *you* in the driving seat not some CD remastering engineer whose efforts can range from great to awful.
Well recorded 78s from the 30s on have a 'full blooded' honest sound and LPs can sound anemic in comparison. This was brought home to me once when a colleague came round and we spent most of the evening listening to 78s. At the end of the evening I put on what I'd normally consider to be a very well recorded LP to try and impress, but compared with what had gone before it sounded pretty limp!
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
The major drawback with most 78's is their composition. They were made from a mix of shellac, which is essentially a sort of natural polymer/resin type thing..with a filler of ground slate..which is..err..rock dust. I believe in most cases, 'carbon black' was also added. 78s pressed on vinyl, appeared in the 1950s. I don't know about other countries, but in the UK they were almost exclusively issued by Pye 'Nixa', and associated labels ( Mercury, maybe Emarcey etc.)
https://img.discogs.com/ncLvNbx5twI...ogs-images/R-6970465-1430675332-8636.jpeg.jpg
In my experience, 78s played with a half decent and correctly profiled stylus can sound very good indeed. Thing is,as mentioned above.. there were not only numerous companies using different EQ, there were also several major 'periods' in 78 production, where groove profiles generally changed. I used to have a rather lovely 78 of the Ted Lewis Orchestra, doing Tin Roof Blues..which was labelled as 'Speed 80'. Another consideration... But playing 78s is huge fun. I have a few hundred of the things, ranging from the 1920s to around 1959.
As I understand it 'electrical' recording was not introduced until around 1926. So.. anything before that depended upon artists bellowing into horns etc, to mechanically activate the cutting stylus. The introduction of electrical recording allowed artists to perform 'naturally' and be captured by microphones.
https://img.discogs.com/ncLvNbx5twI...ogs-images/R-6970465-1430675332-8636.jpeg.jpg
In my experience, 78s played with a half decent and correctly profiled stylus can sound very good indeed. Thing is,as mentioned above.. there were not only numerous companies using different EQ, there were also several major 'periods' in 78 production, where groove profiles generally changed. I used to have a rather lovely 78 of the Ted Lewis Orchestra, doing Tin Roof Blues..which was labelled as 'Speed 80'. Another consideration... But playing 78s is huge fun. I have a few hundred of the things, ranging from the 1920s to around 1959.
As I understand it 'electrical' recording was not introduced until around 1926. So.. anything before that depended upon artists bellowing into horns etc, to mechanically activate the cutting stylus. The introduction of electrical recording allowed artists to perform 'naturally' and be captured by microphones.
Other parts of the world held on to 78's, at least, well into the sixties. Even Beatles where released on 78's!!!
http://www.yokono.co.uk/collection/beatles/india/78rpm/india_single_parlo_78.html
The Swedish Radio sometimes plays late 1950's 78's, they usually has stunning SQ.
http://www.yokono.co.uk/collection/beatles/india/78rpm/india_single_parlo_78.html
The Swedish Radio sometimes plays late 1950's 78's, they usually has stunning SQ.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
One of the reasons for the longevity of 78s, ten plus years after the introduction of the far superior quality LP was the ability to play them on wind up gramophones in far flung places. A former colleague who went to boarding school in Kenya in the fifties said they had no mains electricity supply for a gramophone so they were still using a big old wind up HMV.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
As far as I'm aware, the last 'mainstream' 78s were issued in the UK in 1960, although I'm fairly sure that the budget 'Embassy' label marketed by Woolworth, continued to sell a few 78s after that. I recall visiting a cousin who had inherited a sort of 78 rpm only electric player from his older sisters. He had a few 'covers' on Embassy 78s, including a version of the Matt Monroe hit first published here in 1961.
https://78rpm.club/record-labels/embassy/
Broadly speaking,records issued during the 'crossover' period, from the mid 1950s to 1960, have a sort of 'reciprocal' value, such that early Elvis 45s are relatively rare and therefore valuable, whereas equivalent 78s are worth much less. By the end of the 1950s the situation reverses, such that 45s are relatively low value, whereas a copy of 'Mess of the Blues', on 78 from 1960 was only available by special order and is consequently rare and worth £1k+
https://78rpm.club/record-labels/embassy/
Broadly speaking,records issued during the 'crossover' period, from the mid 1950s to 1960, have a sort of 'reciprocal' value, such that early Elvis 45s are relatively rare and therefore valuable, whereas equivalent 78s are worth much less. By the end of the 1950s the situation reverses, such that 45s are relatively low value, whereas a copy of 'Mess of the Blues', on 78 from 1960 was only available by special order and is consequently rare and worth £1k+
Tony L
Administrator
The acoustic era stuff is very interesting as it is pure mechanical analogue; a point-source recording (what the recording horn picked up) played back via a point source horn. There is something incredibly direct about good examples, I guess they are in time and phase in a way that is impossible with modern recordings and replay equipment. Obviously they have massive limitations too, but they can be very cool, as can early electric recordings. I personally prefer to hear 78s played back acoustically via a wind-up gramophone than electrically, though this is obviously far harder on the records. I don’t have anything especially valuable so just play them on my little HMV 102 when the mood takes me.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
That sounds about right, I remember talking to my Dad about it at the time and being surprised that they were still available even then. He remembered the situation at EMI in the very early fifties when the board decided that LPs were a temporary fad and they would just carry on producing 78s. A year later they had a largely new board and a crash programme to produce LPs, He had a number of the earliest EMI LP test pressings from around 1951, now mine.
This https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00E6KE4P2/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21 cover picture shows an acoustic recording horn, balance achieved by carefully positioning players closer or further away from the horn.
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