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It's official. Public schools breed fascists

The single biggest problem we had with the UK school our daughter was in was a small number of persistent offenders wrecking the experience for all other pupils, be it bullying or interrupting lessons. The school appeared to be absolutely powerless, and when we went to speak with the deputy head he admitted that there was really nothing that could be done.

I completely support the idea of inclusive education, but it can't be allowed to devolve to the level of allowing < 5% of pupils to wreck the learning of the other 95%.

This does seem to be a key problem. Sort this out and I’m sure many kids would realise more of their potential, which is of course what a good education should enable, whatever your ability. If state schools could fix this, I’m sure many wouldn’t feel the need to send their kids to public schools.
 
This does seem to be a key problem. Sort this out and I’m sure many kids would realise more of their potential, which is of course what a good education should enable, whatever your ability. If state schools could fix this, I’m sure many wouldn’t feel the need to send their kids to public schools.
Smaller class sizes would make managing those problems a lot easier.

Smaller class sizes are central to many other issues facing education too.
 
Clearing out some cupboards recently, I found an old carrier bag in which along with some old letters and postcards were my primary school reports. I was top of the class, obvs, but the class in question had 43 pupils! The teacher was able to keep order only because he was an ex-squaddie who slapped us around regardless of size and gender, and who called out the dreaded phrase ‘Fetch me the cane and the punishment book’ several times a day.
 
Smaller class sizes would make managing those problems a lot easier.

Smaller class sizes are central to many other issues facing education too.

My nieces go (or went in one case) to a single sex comprehensive in Sussex. According to my sister that school has a "school within a school" for disruptive pupils, and the school itself does get good results, though my nieces report that many of the children speak to the teachers incredibly disrespectfully.

I like the school within a school approach, but it sounds expensive. I also like zero tolerance for disrespect towards teaching staff, because once the kids have no respect for the teachers it's all over.

For some peculiar reason we don't seem to have the same problem in Massachusetts - at least not in the suburban schools. I have no experience of the inner city schools. (but then again the UK schools I'm referring to are in affluent suburbs).
 
It’s quite simple, there is a set of rules to observe. My school kicked a couple out and rightly so.

I sailed pretty close to the wind.

I've often thought that it would be a nice little earner to open a very very expensive private school for all the disruptive and disturbed children who are refused a place in regular private schools.

Summerhill, Bedales, Repton.

Yes, it is a dilemma. As I say I am very anti-authoritarian, very much a loner/outsider, so I don’t like removing choice from people. I also consider I was failed by the state school system, so see much room for improvement. I genuinely learned nothing from it. Everything I know or can do is self taught. I absolutely detested school. I’d likely have hated private education even more as I have zero respect for authority and tend to pay little if any attention to it. I never made any connection between forced attendance of school and it being of any benefit to me so I had an awkward and disruptive time.

You really are quite an enigma. An anti-authoritarian socialist-democrat who is also an evangelical EUphile. It doesn't compute. None of it.
 
I passed the 11 plus and went to the local grammar school where I suffered 7 years of abuse and bullying by sadistic and paedophile staff and thugs and bullies in the classroom.
I hated every second of it and left sixth form an abject failure.
My three kids on the other hand went to the local comp, loved every minute of it, flourished academically, have 7 degrees between them and still, in their thirties, maintain networks of friends they established there.

I went to the local grammar. Didn't much care for school and spent as much time as possible elsewhere. Not really the schools fault.

Brother went to the comp. Made some good friends. Standard of teaching was pretty ropey. One of the teachers had a breakdown and did a runner with all their GCSE coursework just before it was due.

Sister went to the girls grammar. Got a gazzilion A Levels, went to Cambridge, never quite got round to finishing her PhD but now a high flyer in the civil service.

Hard to generalise really.
 
You really are quite an enigma. An anti-authoritarian socialist-democrat who is also an evangelical EUphile. It doesn't compute. None of it.

Only because for some reason you can’t see that the EU is a PR democracy, that since leaving we have already lost huge amounts of human rights and civil liberties, and have done so thanks to a minority establishment elite kleptocracy/oligarchy with absolute power, and with little if any prospect of removing them from power. That’s before we get to the point that we’ve lost freedom of movement so are largely constrained to shitty Little Brexitland rather than have the ability to live, work and retire anywhere else in the EU-zone. I assume from other posts you’ve made you were born into sufficient wealth not to have to care about such things. For those of us who weren’t it really does feel like being trapped in a Trump hellhole without any exit-route.
 
I went to the local grammar. Didn't much care for school and spent as much time as possible elsewhere. Not really the schools fault.

Brother went to the comp. Made some good friends. Standard of teaching was pretty ropey. One of the teachers had a breakdown and did a runner with all their GCSE coursework just before it was due.

Sister went to the girls grammar. Got a gazzilion A Levels, went to Cambridge, never quite got round to finishing her PhD but now a high flyer in the civil service.

Hard to generalise really.
Quite.
Just putting the lie to the myth that “ better” schools have less thugs.
 
The Nazis used democracy to demolish democracy and now we have a Tory Party doing much the same


Eton. A warning from history

That was there aim most certainly...but I blame the Socialists and Communists...Why? Instead of working together to fight fascism...they fought each other and gave the Nazis a free ride ..The Communists were quite happy for the Nazis to take power in 1933...they believed that after they messed up...it would be their turn......Today, Labour are doing the same...instead of building a viable progressive alliance that can defeat the Tories in the FPTP system and offering electoral reform...If the Tories in 'win' the next election...that will be it game over for democracy...Is that hyperbole? Wait and see...instead Labour remain 'tribal'...I speak as a Labour Party member and history teacher.
 
iu


That’s another Eton mess you have got us in!
 
A couple of things strike me from that article

First,
“The sheer amount of school exchanges is eye-opening. Between 1935 and 1938 the Oranienstein Napola, for example, took part in exchanges with Westminster, St Paul’s, Tonbridge, Dauntsey’s and Bingley school in Yorkshire. It entertained headmasters and exchange teachers from Shrewsbury, Dauntsey’s and Bolton. There were also sport tournaments with Eton, Harrow, Westminster, Winchester, Shrewsbury, Bradfield and Bryanston.”
These exchanges were going on well after the Nazi Party had revealed it’s true colours. These exchanges reveal the extent of admiration for the Nazi Party amongst our social elites at the time, rather than being confined to a few nutty royals, such admiration was widespread.

Second
“Heissmeyer believed that “after such trips, the young man will see Germany with new eyes; he will return rich in experiences; his horizons will be broadened … he will detect weaknesses at home which he must help to remedy. He will learn to love his fatherland more deeply.”

He also saw the largely independent role of the private school headmaster as an embodiment of the “Führer-principle”
More than mere admiration, our elites were engaged in emulation.

The question is, how much, if at all, has this attitude changed?

It is of course absurd to try to make the comparison. All else apart, it requires that there is any equivalence between the now and the then. There is very little.

In the 1930s the aristocracy, and the simply rich who aped them, felt fundamentally threatened by communism, which had threatened to steamroll across Europe in the post war decade and a half. Hitler's National Socialist dream was to them the antidote and the solution to suppression of the tide of communism, and thus the salvation of their wealth and status, and whether or not they flocked to it, they were certainly seduced. I'm reading the recently unexpurgated and eye-watering diaries of the truly ghastly Henry 'Chips' Channon at the moment. He represented the deeply self-entitled societal 'elite', and, like many of them was a close friend and supporter of Edward VIII, an open admirer of the Nazis, and an appeaser who despised Churchill.

They were very, very different times. Comparison to today is facile.
 
That was there aim most certainly...but I blame the Socialists and Communists...Why? Instead of working together to fight fascism...they fought each other and gave the Nazis a free ride ..The Communists were quite happy for the Nazis to take power in 1933...they believed that after they messed up...it would be their turn......Today, Labour are doing the same...instead of building a viable progressive alliance that can defeat the Tories in the FPTP system and offering electoral reform...instead Labour remain 'tribal'...I speak as a Labour Party member and history teacher.
It is true that the left has failed to present a United front, often letting in rabid right wing governments and dictators as a consequence.

However, it has to be said that Hitler had a lot of support for his nationalist and racist policies from the German middle class, so while divisions helped the Nazi Party, it has to be remembered that it also had a significant groundswell of support. Like wise today we have a Labour Party that is not fit for purpose, but we also have a Prime Minister who is corrupt, venal and anti democratic, and people have voted for him despite his obvious corruption and anti democratic intentions. Perhaps even because of them.

So while the divisions in the left have allowed tyrants to gain power, one has to wonder why they were so popular in the 30’s and are popular again today?

I mean, regardless of a Labour Party that is so useless, what sort of mindless twat votes for Boris Johnson?
 
Only because for some reason you can’t see that the EU is a PR democracy, that since leaving we have already lost huge amounts of human rights and civil liberties, and have done so thanks to a minority establishment elite kleptocracy/oligarchy with absolute power, and with little if any prospect of removing them from power. That’s before we get to the point that we’ve lost freedom of movement so are largely constrained to shitty Little Brexitland rather than have the ability to live, work and retire anywhere else in the EU-zone. I assume from other posts you’ve made you were born into sufficient wealth not to have to care about such things. For those of us who weren’t it really does feel like being trapped in a Trump hellhole without any exit-route.

You start off with the usual blind fiction of the EU as a democracy, PR or otherwise, so it can only be downhill from there on, and it is. Brexit trumpland's quiet democracy, however imperfect, is doing its thing, if only you'd open your curtains and look outside. The hated tories, exposed once again by the same parliament with which they have made merry, have slipped behind in the opinion polls, are being deserted by their traditional core, and the 'red wall' is on the verge of following. The PM is already on borrowed time, and at the rate he's going runs the risk of being defenestrated even before the next election.

Your freedom to live, work and retire in Europe has indeed been curtailed, at least to some degree (I know plenty of non-EU people who live, work and retire in Europe), but it was a selfish freedom, and one in practical terms only really available to the same relatively or very wealthy whom you so clearly resent.

You say that you're trapped in a 'Trump' hell hole (this weird obsession with Trump). I thought that Manchester was bloody marvellous last time I went there - and I know it's become even better since - a bright, vibrant, increasingly cosmopolitan city, with quick and easy access to some of Europe's most beautiful countryside. I don't see that you've made any effort to swap it for, to take a not entirely random example, dirty, tired, rubbish-strewn, crime-ridden and violent (socialist-run) Paris?
 
It is of course absurd to try to make the comparison. All else apart, it requires that there is any equivalence between the now and the then. There is very little.

In the 1930s the aristocracy, and the simply rich who aped them, felt fundamentally threatened by communism, which had threatened to steamroll across Europe in the post war decade and a half. Hitler's National Socialist dream was to them the antidote and the solution to suppression of the tide of communism, and thus the salvation of their wealth and status, and whether or not they flocked to it, they were certainly seduced. I'm reading the recently unexpurgated and eye-watering diaries of the truly ghastly Henry 'Chips' Channon at the moment. He represented the deeply self-entitled societal 'elite', and, like many of them was a close friend and supporter of Edward VIII, an open admirer of the Nazis, and an appeaser who despised Churchill.

They were very, very different times. Comparison to today is facile.
In that particular post I was not making comparisons, just asking how much has changed. And while a great deal has obviously changed, we are still left with an Eton elite at the top of government and that elite is still linking socialism with revolutionary communism in order to pursue an agenda based on strangling provision for those below that and further enriching themselves. Also, in Boris Johnson we have a charismatic leader who lies, deceives, is fundamentally corrupt and profoundly undemocratic.

The comparisons are not facile. Many people voted an openly venal and anti democratic leader into power in Germany many years ago, and many have voted for an openly venal and anti democratic leader into power in the U.K. today.

So while we might not have quite the same degree of evil in government, in substance, the ideology has not changed significantly. It has only been diluted.
 
In that particular post I was not making comparisons, just asking how much has changed. And while a great deal has obviously changed, we are still left with an Eton elite at the top of government and that elite is still linking socialism with revolutionary communism in order to pursue an agenda based on strangling provision for those below that and further enriching themselves. Also, in Boris Johnson we have a charismatic leader who lies, deceives, is fundamentally corrupt and profoundly undemocratic.

The comparisons are not facile. Many people voted an openly venal and anti democratic leader into power in Germany many years ago, and many have voted for an openly venal and anti democratic leader into power in the U.K. today.

So while we might not have quite the same degree of evil in government, in substance, the ideology has not changed significantly. It has only been diluted.

Underlying the original post, with its link the the Guardian piece (there was also one in the DT), was the insinuation, and one which plays nicely to a popular theme amongst the more politically vociferous of the pfm membership, that because the Nazis admired the British Public School system in the 1930s, that there lies definitive proof that the Public Schools today, and most specifically Eton, act as a production line for a neo-Nazi 'elite' at the top of both government and society today.

The premise is, of course, utter twaddle. Both the schools themselves, and the society we live in today, bear little or no comparison to either the still heavily socially layered Britain of the 1930s, or to the Germany of the same period, humiliated as it was by the onerous conditions of the Armistice, and by the deprivations and despair of the collapse of the economy and the currency in the 1920s.

The Britain, and indeed the Germany, of today are two radically different places than of then, open, infinitely more egalitarian, informed and, even in relative terms, wealthy. Neither country is about to seek racial scapegoats, or build death camps.

So, Johnson is charismatic, a liar, and a sociopath, qualities that are individually, though rarely in such obvious ensemble, common to many people in politics, which does not of course mean that all politicians (even tory ones) are corrupt, venal sociopaths. TheDecameron will delight in now inquisitorially demanding how low I will go to defend Johnson, which is but a small burden that I have to carry on this forum. Boris was elected to take us out of the EU following a democratic instruction from the demos, and on a ticket of lifting those parts of the country that have been neglected by successive governments of all colours. On the former he was harried by a by definition undemocratic rearguard action by the establishment and the EU itself, and by the pandemic and his own many misjudgements in response to it. He will be judged, and it will be harshly, at the next election on his success or failure of those two fundamental promises, and by his failures (and successes) in regard of covid, and indeed now, on his personal venality, greed and corruption.

Johnson has many very evident faults, but a 21st century rendition of Hitler he is definitively not, and the comparison is indeed utterly facile.
 


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