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HORNS THE ULTIMATE HIFI SPEAKERS ?

S-Man said:
I probably am in a small minority for 2 reasons

- Many people are heavily influenced by cost and other's opinions.

- I think we all hear things a bit differently. I'm also in a minority in that I don't like ESL63s, I find the lack of vertical dispersion very unnatural sounding. FWIW 989s are great, they don't have this problem.
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There are plenty of idiots who equate quality with price. I am most decidedly not one of them! And I’m very familiar with planar speakers having owned 57s, 989s and Apogee Divas.
 
Listen, you blokes can go on about the technical limitations of horns for a month of Sundays, but ask yourself this question: Would esteemed pink fishy Joe P be listening to horns since 2008 if they weren't awesome? There's your answer.

To be fair, he likely would have been OK with panels, too. Maybe omnidirectional speakers for all I know.

Joe
 
Joe P said:
Listen, you blokes can go on about the technical limitations of horns for a month of Sundays, but ask yourself this question: Would esteemed pink fishy Joe P be listening to horns since 2008 if they weren't awesome? There's your answer.

To be fair, he likely would have been OK with panels, too. Maybe omnidirectional speakers for all I know.

Joe
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This fish speaks the truth words.
 
Paul,

I'll see if I can find the old pix, but in the meantime here's a scan of the brochure.

1968c.jpg


Mine is the one at the top right. It's a ye olde Tannoy brochure. Specs mention c.p.s. = cycles per second = Hz, and efficiency instead of sensitivity.

Joe
 
All equipment, especially speakers, is a compromise. Size, cost, performance characteristics, appearance, partnering equipment, wife acceptance factors...

As I've said before, satisfaction is my goal, not perfection.

I loved the "out of thin air" tangent on Quads.

I think the horn in the JBL 4430 trounces the typical Altec horn. And at low volume in the near field the 15 inch woofer blends beautifully with the midrange compression driver. I enjoy switching to them from my 2805s. At 93-94dB efficiency I seldom use a full watt. Then, when I want to wake up the neighbors, I can do that too.
 
naimnut said:
All equipment, especially speakers, is a compromise. Size, cost, performance characteristics, appearance, partnering equipment, wife acceptance factors...

As I've said before, satisfaction is my goal, not perfection.

I loved the "out of thin air" tangent on Quads.

I think the horn in the JBL 4430 trounces the typical Altec horn. And at low volume in the near field the 15 inch woofer blends beautifully with the midrange compression driver. I enjoy switching to them from my 2805s. At 93-94dB efficiency I seldom use a full watt. Then, when I want to wake up the neighbors, I can do that too.
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The horns that Urei put on the Altec 16" driver they used is pretty good also. Think the 16" driver is the 604 8k. The horn has blue foam lips and also two little resonance controlling devices.
I remember from a JBL white paper archived on Lansing Heritage that the horn on the 4430s was supposed to be very nearly theoretically perfect and introduced no FR reductions or aberrations, unlike most horns. I'd say the Urei's are marginally more open sounding, but the bass doesn't compare. The Ureis are claimed to be 100db efficient.
 
A few years ago I heard Acapella horns at a show and was quite impressed with the way vocals floated in mid air between the speakers. I only heard a small section of a well recorded track being played though.

Saying that, I was also impressed with the way some omnidirectional Shahinion speakers filled a large room with sound.

My own experience with horn loaded compression drivers used as tweeters in Tannoys and DIY is positive with great dynamics and clarity, but there's also something missing compared to a soft dome tweeter. I always felt like they needed a super tweeter, but measurements suggested they didn't need one (not on-axis at least).
 
John Phillips said:
This is an issue that fascinates me - understanding more about what constitutes good (enough) engineering for horn loudspeaker technology. For the record I have not spent much time listening to music over horn loudspeakers and I have no specific view on them.

It's certainly true IME that the audiophile world is full of over-generalizations - which is quite understandable since people naturally seek simple explanations for what they hear. And one specific thing that happens often is that people compare badly engineered technology X with well-engineered technology Y and conclude that the differences are due to the technology when they are rather more to do with the engineering. I have seen this finger-pointing in my (light) reading from both the horn-enthusiast and direct-radiator-enthusiast sides.

ISTM that practical horn loudspeakers are actually subject to essential compromises, just as with direct radiator loudspeakers - but in different ways. What interests me is to discover a more balanced view of what good (enough) engineering means in the context of horn loudspeakers. Perhaps it is time I bought some good reference book on the subject if I can find one that is still in print.
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If someone asked me to have a go at designing a crossover for a large, multi driver horn speaker I'd probably refuse. With the drivers being so far apart in all directions and the size of the things, achieving accurate measurements would be very difficult. When you consider how even established manufacturers can often get it wrong with much smaller and simpler designs, it's not surprising a lot of horn speakers sound bad.
 
sq225917 said:
That bandwidth from one driver?
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Final crossover points will be determined once measurements have been taken. The high pass may have to come up a bit to nearer 600hz but the target for the low pass will actually be 8khz - we shall see. It’s a compression driver with with a 1.5” throat and a Be diaphragm. I’ve actually now got 2 pairs of bi-radials that I can try these CDs with; some Yamamoto F350s and some Joseph Crowe ES290s. I believe these to be outstanding horns.
 
Fatmarley said:
If someone asked me to have a go at designing a crossover for a large, multi driver horn speaker I'd probably refuse. With the drivers being so far apart in all directions and the size of the things, achieving accurate measurements would be very difficult. When you consider how even established manufacturers can often get it wrong with much smaller and simpler designs, it's not surprising a lot of horn speakers sound bad.
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You are right about lots of commercial speakers (not just horns) where little regard has been paid to C2C distances. The speakers I’m putting together will be designed to minimise lobing effects as far as is practically possible.
 
Never heard a Horn that didn’t instantly sound like a Horn.

At their very best capable of sounding dynamic and impressive but never very musically involving and rhythmically indecisive and vague.

The kind of money required to get even a mediocre performance means horns are the reserve of those very wealthy and lacking taste.

More an avant garde art installation than a serious attempt at music reproduction.
 
iansr said:
Final crossover points will be determined once measurements have been taken. The high pass may have to come up a bit to nearer 600hz but the target for the low pass will actually be 8khz - we shall see. It’s a compression driver with with a 1.5” throat and a Be diaphragm. I’ve actually now got 2 pairs of bi-radials that I can try these CDs with; some Yamamoto F350s and some Joseph Crowe ES290s. I believe these to be outstanding horns.
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Are you bringing any of these up to the audio talk meet at the end of the month Ian. I for one will be looking forwards to hearing them if you are.
 
Fatmarley said:
My own experience with horn loaded compression drivers used as tweeters in Tannoys and DIY is positive with great dynamics and clarity, but there's also something missing compared to a soft dome tweeter. I always felt like they needed a super tweeter, but measurements suggested they didn't need one (not on-axis at least).
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I know what you mean. I ended up adding ST100s to my Legacy Ardens just because I couldn’t quite get the in-room HF ‘seasoning’ to taste quite to my liking. The STs definitely help, with no obvious downsides (once dialled in). My room is a touch too ‘cushions, carpets and couches’ for a balanced HF response without feeling it sounds a touch shut-in, so I need that little bit of ‘seasoning’ :)
 
Steve 57 said:
Are you bringing any of these up to the audio talk meet at the end of the month Ian. I for one will be looking forwards to hearing them if you are.
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Hi Steve, well you will be able to see the ES 290s because they will be actually handed over to me at the meeting:) . However due to radical alteration work on our house it will be late summer 2022 before the speaker system is up and running.
 
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