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Rega IO vs. Brio 2017

John Phillips said:
There is much symmetry between the ultra-subjectivist and ultra-objectivist attitude to audio.

It seems to me that the concept of "good enough for purpose" means nothing to either. Chasing some personal idea of "perfection" is, I quite understand, a valid way to pursue the hobby. But the distain of both sides for anyone who does not share the same obsession is very unattractive. And I observe that such extreme attitudes often lead to unacceptable intolerance.
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Yes, and I find it particularly ironic is that, while constantly railing against "audiophools" and their snobbery, the ASR crowd somehow manage to come across as even more snobbish and arrogant in their respective extreme.
 
seeformiles said:
Yes, and I find it particularly ironic is that, while constantly railing against "audiophools" and their snobbery, the ASR crowd somehow manage to come across as even more snobbish and arrogant in their respective extreme.
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Perhaps 'some' of them would have been more apt and to be honest, your post doesn't exactly differ from what you accuse 'them' of ... no?
 
RoA said:
Perhaps 'some' of them would have been more apt and to be honest, your post doesn't exactly differ from what you accuse 'them' of ... no?
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Agreed, that was a bit presumptious. 'Some' is what I meant, not 'all'. My sincere apologies :oops:
 
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John Phillips said:
Chasing some personal idea of "perfection" is, I quite understand, a valid way to pursue the hobby.
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Until you realise perfection doesn't exist.
But you had it right- personal idea of perfection. That's what it is. With plenty of disciples to follow!!!

The measuring is fine, and as others say, can be interesting. It's how they react to it afterwards.
 
The ASR disciples are what the phrase “intelligent idiots” was designed for

Music can never by definition by solely objective
 
Fair enough, and you may well be right. I’ve probably crossed the line myself to be honest.
 
I feel sorry for the people who send him their gear for measuring and it gets a broken panther poor souls.
 
John Phillips said:
There is much symmetry between the ultra-subjectivist and ultra-objectivist attitude to audio.

It seems to me that the concept of "good enough for purpose" means nothing to either. Chasing some personal idea of "perfection" is, I quite understand, a valid way to pursue the hobby. But the distain of both sides for anyone who does not share the same obsession is very unattractive. And I observe that such extreme attitudes often lead to unacceptable intolerance.
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What a fabulous post!
I absolutely concur.
 
Robert said:
So let's start with what the IO actually is, and the intended use case.

A very small amplifier with a 30w/8R rating, no 4R rating and occupying about half the volume of an old shoebox Nait, or Cyrus. Unless you've handled an IO you won't appreciate just how petite this amp actually is.
It is designed for use with small loudspeakers of limited LF bandwidth and a relatively benign loading, with MM vinyl as the primary source.

First let's look at the heat issue. Case sides reaching 45deg after 20+ minutes of sustained drive with test tones is not unusual. Go pull out an old Quad 405 (100w/8R) or Cyrus amplifier and try the same trick - you'll get a similar result. Moreover, 45 degrees is not 'burning hot'. Perhaps the reviewer has particularly sensitive hands.
In addition, this amplifier along with all Rega designs runs with higher than typical bias current - part of the design philosophy - if it ran cool it would be faulty. All Rega amplifiers contain thermal protection and will shut down if the output devices exceed a fixed point, which from my own testing is when the sinks/case gets to the mid 50 degrees.

Distortion and noise. Better than 0.05% and so not audible in the vast majority of use cases.

Distortion+noise appears to rise with output into 4R loads. It sure does - but look at the expanded scale - 1dB variance in the plot!
Utterly insignificant.

Crosstalk. The reviewer is fixating on the worst case figure of 30dB, which is at 20Khz where crosstalk will be inaudible.
At frequencies where this matters most it sits around -45dB. Not great but a function of cramming so much into a small case and likely capacitive leakage across cramped PCB tracks, but again it isn't high enough to impact soundstage and imaging. If it were, you'd never ever run a phono cartridge!

Phono RIAA and overall response.
It's largely flat but rolls down a little at the very top and bottom. An eminently sensible design choice for a budget amplifier of limited power destined for use with smaller loudspeakers. Extending LF response unnecessarily on the phono input with a small amplifier is asking for trouble. Rega sensibly avoid this pitfall. To be clear, the response is a paltry 0.75dB down at the audible extremes.

Dynamic or burst power is roughly double that of the RMS capability. This means that for a small amplifier the design focus has been placed squarely on performance under dynamic condition, I.e. music and not lab signals. Again, sensible design choices by Rega.

High headphone output impedance.
Yes, fair point, but typical for amplifiers which drive headphones by padding down the main output. It's a nice to have facility but no substitute for a dedicated headphone amp. I don't believe Rega claim otherwise.

You cannot have everything for £379, and certainly not for a UK built product.
Rega compromised wisely to suit the budget and intended use case.
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So why not post this at ASR? There are sensible folk there too.
 
brab said:
So why not post this at ASR? There are sensible folk there too.
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Because the comments were coped over here into this thread. My audio forum home is here (for 20+ years) and I have no interest in ASR.

James Morris said:
Blimey. Whatever you do, don't go spouting (that'll be their words) all that on ARS.
If their God and his use and reading of his tools say it's bad, then its bad!!
They'll be after you like a pack of wolves (Actually sorry, that's being unkind to a pack of wolves).

Oh, and I'm not sure country of manufacture has much to do with it. Doesn't matter where you make it, there has to be compromises
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Those who know me from this forum will understand that my natural sympathies have always been with and remain with the measurements are important camp. I've been badged an 'objectivist' more times than I care to remember!

Context is all important. A thorough set of bench tests is an important part of any thorough review IMO, but you can't just stick them into a table and apply a grading.
There are thresholds which determine where things matter and where they can be, for the most part ignored. This part of the equation is often lacking with ASR and sites of that type.

There are other problems too, like trying to measure a large dipole panel intended for use as a pair, on the ground, with response integrated into the far-field - raised high off the ground with a near-field scanner. Hmm.....

ASR will often talk of the need for trained listeners in reviews, quote the work of noted industry experts in the field of electronics and acoustics, and of course the need for the gold standard double blind test. It then proceeds to slam a product based on a set of raw data with none of the rules it claims to uphold in evidence.

ASR, we'll judge you by your own (claimed) standards.

FWIW I do enjoy Amir's many videos debunking myths and explaining the science behind a good evaluation, but like so many forums sitting on the audio fringe (both ends) ASR fails to effectively convey the relationship between objective and subjective factors. You measured it, great - now translate that into what we can hear, and when.
 
I have more and more doubts about which amp to take .......
I just wish I had a good system with which to listen to my favorite music and movies .... but sometimes some extremely negative reviews make me give up
 
Nick80Music said:
Rega Io, Marantz PM6007, Audiolab, Leak Stereo 130, Cambridge Cxa61 ....... which one to take?
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I heard the IO on Saturday, the source was a P2 with Carbon cartridge, Speakers were a pair of Rega Kytes, this was in a record shop , not a hifi shop so it's fair to say the system was perhaps maybe not optimised , TT on the counter and the little amp and speakers on bookshelves behind the counter, he was playing the recently re-released remastered Pink Floyd LP 'A momentary lapse of reason' , I was very, very impressed by what I heard , I honestly think you be really hard pushed to better it for the money involved and given that Rega is a UK manufacturer with an excellent reputation for customer service it should provide years of enjoyment without any hassle.
 
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Darren L said:
I heard the IO on Saturday, the source was a P2 with Carbon cartridge, Speakers were a pair of Rega Kytes, this was in a record shop , not a hifi shop so it's fair to say the system was perhaps maybe not optimised , TT on the counter and the little amp and speakers on bookshelves behind the counter, he was playing the recently re-released remastered Pink Floyd LP 'A momentary laspe of reason' , I was very, very impressed by what I heard , I honestly think you be really hard pushed to better it for the money involved and given that Rega is a UK manufacturer with an excellent reputation for customer service it should provide years of enjoyment without any hassle.
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Interesting.

Has anyone else tried the new Rega Kytes?
 
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