ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Burnley, and many areas like it, are ripe for a Trump
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V
- Thread starter Seanm
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Seanm
pfm Member
Very unlikely many of those interviewed voted for Brexit - or at all, in the referendum or in 2019. This is what the schadenfreude people just don't seem able to process. Most of the people who made Brexit their number one issue, whether leave or remain, are insulated from its effects.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
An interesting pattern in that Guardian article was that the town previously elected 8 BNP councillors, 2/3 voted for Brexit then they elect a 29yr old Tory as their MP. It sounds like Trumpism is well established already.
Tony L
Administrator
I suspect if you lived up north rather than in That London you might have a different perspective. I live in a neighbouring town and those with the least tended to be suckered-in the most by Farage etc to my eyes. Your oft repeated theory of the obviously strong Burnley, Bolton, Blackburn etc pro-Brexit vote and outright rejection of all things Islington Labour/Corbyn all being down to an unprecedented influx of wealthy Tory pensioners is certainly not backed by any evidence to my eyes.
PS The Trump thing is a very real and present danger. These are exactly the areas it takes root, as did Farage and the BNP/NF beforehand. The football terraces and sink estates were the traditional NF recruitment grounds in the ‘70s and before. Things have changed, but far from entirely. Poorer parts of the north unquestionably remain ‘far-right curious’. Starmer wrapping himself in flags and authoritarianism is not entirely without logic given exactly where Corbynism got so hammered.
Seanm
pfm Member
There's a lot of demographic room between "wealthy Tory pensioners" and people who are close to literally starving. I'd say the latter group are likely to be under-represented amongst those who bothered to vote. I think if you said "Told you so!" to their faces the response would be bewilderment rather than regret or defensiveness.
lordsummit
Moderator
It’s much like the town I live in, and they did get off their rumps to vote leave, although like Sean says probably not the most vulnerable. Heywood is full of minimum wage/low hours zero contract workers. It’s these who voted for it in my experience. Motivated by years of austerity, then blaming a Labour MP for it, a well documented Asian male led child grooming scandal, a nasty by-election with Farage front fore and centre. Finally they voted out very hard working and conscientious Labour MP and replaced her with a young Tory turd. He’s done nothing, never appears in the town. His Facebook page is tumble weed. Corbyn and Gerring it dun were the reasons cited by the people I encountered. I suspect we’ll go Labour again, but the local Labour council doesn’t do any favours, local social media campaigns have been a new artisan area in one end of the Borough, a massive redevelopment of the railway station and canal in a close town, and proudly announcing that Heywood where I live has had a new bin placed in the centre. It won’t help, the responses to this news made page three of the Sun.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Labour's plan to win the next election unveiled:
I'm sure that a commission to purge left-wing MPs is just what voters are crying out for as COVID cases rise, the cost of living soars and universal credit is cut.
Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...rty-says-stop-listening-start-doing-2ch3gm7s0
I'm sure that a commission to purge left-wing MPs is just what voters are crying out for as COVID cases rise, the cost of living soars and universal credit is cut.
Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...rty-says-stop-listening-start-doing-2ch3gm7s0
Tony L
Administrator
For clarity I’m not doing a ‘told you so’ in that way. Sure, like so many I did recognise Brexit as exactly what it is, I knew exactly where it would lead, who would pay the price, and I have nothing but contempt for a spineless and inept Labour party that just sat on the fence and did not speak out. Seriously, screw them. **** that useless cowardly shit excuse for a political party. Like Farage and the Tories they destroyed so many lives. Lives I have nothing but sympathy for. Labour claims to exist to protect these people. When the time came to stand up it didn’t even speak truth to Tory power.
lordsummit
Moderator
The thing is, Labour, and even the more sensible wing of the Conservative Party did speak out, they were branded ‘Project Fear.’ Now it’s coming to pass. The supporters of Brexit are still not likely to listen. There was no excuse for the Corbyn and Abbot show, the last manifesto was an embarrassing fiction. I can see both sides of the coin with triggering Article 50, I veer towards making them issue a plan before triggering it, but look where ignoring the will of the people got Labour and the Liberals. Hard to compare the SNP, the outcome in Scotland was different, and so Sturgeon by opposing it is reflecting the will of the Scottish.
I’m not even sure that harping on about it now is sensible, I do hope to see something about renegotiation in the Labour manifesto though. Maybe a Customs Union. Even that would though I suspect be electorally toxic, it would give single issue Boris his platform back, and once more he could sing to the galleries. ‘They want to steal our Brexit, they want to give back control.’ I can see the dogs nodding.
I’m not defending the Labour Party, I think they’re currently far too inward looking to have any chance of success. Our current electoral choices under our system though are pretty slim. Labour or Conservative it is. There is no neither option, voting Liberal or Green is not going to remove the ugly right wing nationalists from power. The alternative may not be that great, but I’m certain they are better. Being moderately less crap than the Tories though is not much to aspire to. We deserve much better.
I’m not even sure that harping on about it now is sensible, I do hope to see something about renegotiation in the Labour manifesto though. Maybe a Customs Union. Even that would though I suspect be electorally toxic, it would give single issue Boris his platform back, and once more he could sing to the galleries. ‘They want to steal our Brexit, they want to give back control.’ I can see the dogs nodding.
I’m not defending the Labour Party, I think they’re currently far too inward looking to have any chance of success. Our current electoral choices under our system though are pretty slim. Labour or Conservative it is. There is no neither option, voting Liberal or Green is not going to remove the ugly right wing nationalists from power. The alternative may not be that great, but I’m certain they are better. Being moderately less crap than the Tories though is not much to aspire to. We deserve much better.
Tony L
Administrator
I feel it is always wise to recognise and try and understand any problem, and if insurmountable reverse out. At this point in this situation I really can’t see anything but serious economic decline, division, and fragmentation of the UK itself if we stay on the current course. Labour’s evasion and denial is very much part of the problem we face. They have gone from Corbyn endlessly straddling a fence with Stewart, Hoey, Mann, Gillian Duffey and the Daily Express on one side and Alistair Campbell, Blair, Momentum and every student age voter on the other, to Starmer just sucking the air out of every discussion on the subject to avoid having to stick his party’s pin anywhere on the political map.
The problem we face is that Brexit is simply not working.
lordsummit
Moderator
I have much sympathy with the argument, but, it’s not an electable option. That’s the nature of politics. Brexit is a steaming turd, but for the foreseeable we have to work with it and try to clear it away. Trying to reverse out will just lead to more Boris. Allowing more free movement to save the NHS, transport etc might get through, then joining one of the free trade unions, then…
There’s no magic wand to remove the turd sadly. I suspect that things will not collapse to the extent that this government will fall over them, at least not by 23/24 when the next election will be. I don’t think Labour believes it can win the next election which is why wrongly they’re focussing inwards. They need to get a grip.
There’s no magic wand to remove the turd sadly. I suspect that things will not collapse to the extent that this government will fall over them, at least not by 23/24 when the next election will be. I don’t think Labour believes it can win the next election which is why wrongly they’re focussing inwards. They need to get a grip.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Labour has fallen back into its default mode if tearing itself to pieces, which is criminal when there’s a failing Government led by a clueless chancer.
I first became politically aware during Wilson’s time as Labour leader. He had to spend far too much time and energy trying to keep two warring factions apart. He did however have some excellent ministers to work with (and George Brown as token lefty/class clown).
Blair for all his failings managed to bang enough heads together to keep the show on the road. Starmer by contrast is like the new supply teacher vainly struggling to maintain order whilst the kids kick the shit out of each other.
The answer should be blindingly obvious; focus your fire on the actual enemy; stop trying to curry favour with right-wing newspapers; don’t be tempted into one last purge that will ‘solve everything’. But sadly it looks like yet another election defeat is going to be needed to get that message across.
I first became politically aware during Wilson’s time as Labour leader. He had to spend far too much time and energy trying to keep two warring factions apart. He did however have some excellent ministers to work with (and George Brown as token lefty/class clown).
Blair for all his failings managed to bang enough heads together to keep the show on the road. Starmer by contrast is like the new supply teacher vainly struggling to maintain order whilst the kids kick the shit out of each other.
The answer should be blindingly obvious; focus your fire on the actual enemy; stop trying to curry favour with right-wing newspapers; don’t be tempted into one last purge that will ‘solve everything’. But sadly it looks like yet another election defeat is going to be needed to get that message across.
Graham B
pfm Member
I really like Frankie Boyle but that was almost painful to watch, shooting fish in a barrel. Starmer’s lack of drive and punch is a real disappointment and they really need to up their entire game.
On the future possibilities of EEA membership to stop some of the brexit damage, I hope that might be a realistic option come the next election. There is already a significant gap between those who think it’s going badly vs going well, and we still have a couple more years for the problems to keep piling up. By the time they look to election manifestos it may have gained enough traction, but will face an uphill struggle against those who continue to deny they were fooled.
tricky1
pfm Member
Don't think Keir will be happy with this latest poll:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lump-to-record-low-after-owen-paterson-affair
If he can't even get his nose in front of Boris now, he might as well resign. Seriously, Labour should be streets ahead. This is embarrassing! Where's the effective opposition?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lump-to-record-low-after-owen-paterson-affair
If he can't even get his nose in front of Boris now, he might as well resign. Seriously, Labour should be streets ahead. This is embarrassing! Where's the effective opposition?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Yes, Starmer is useless, but the real problem is the right wing that’s in charge, it is they who control the party and they who control Starmer.
The problem with the Labour Party is not the leader, it’s the Labour Party
tricky1
pfm Member
"The problem with the Labour Party is not the leader, it’s the Labour Party..."
I'd say it's both the Labour party and Starmer but ultimately, the buck stops with him. People don't vote for a Party if they don't believe in its leader.
Conservatives will probably lose loads of votes at the next election if Boris continues his 'performance' i.e. leadership failure but I'm afraid this poll suggests they will probably still pick up more votes than Labour.. (God forbid)!
I'd say it's both the Labour party and Starmer but ultimately, the buck stops with him. People don't vote for a Party if they don't believe in its leader.
Conservatives will probably lose loads of votes at the next election if Boris continues his 'performance' i.e. leadership failure but I'm afraid this poll suggests they will probably still pick up more votes than Labour.. (God forbid)!
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
There is little doubt that the right wing are in charge of the Labour Party. Whoever replaces Starmer, the same people will be in charge with the same agenda. Any leader with be constrained by the agenda. The Labour Party doesn’t need a change of leader, it needs a change of agenda.
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