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What is the Single Ended Triode thing?

I think the SET thing is euphony, more correctly defined in an engineering context as distortion. And that's OK. Not many people are actually seeking no distortion, they're mostly seeking musical reproduction that sounds right to them, which is not necessarily the same thing at all. I like SETs, but if I had one it wouldn't be my only amplifier, just as I like LS3/5as but also have a pair of huge Tannoys.
 
...what I meant was that if the amp is reproducing a signal corresponding with A-440 Hz at a given level - will it know whether it is being produced by a tuba or a flute? It's going to produce the same harmonic spuriae either way...

And what I was getting at was - are those spuriae relative to what was in the original signal or are the their own thing. Is it a sauce over the top or is it a flavour enhancer - salt/MSG that yes has its own character but is primarily (and if used sparingly) to enhance what is already there?
 
Yes, I have 2902s and whereas the original ESLs (57s) only needed the Quad II's (?) 15 watts or so, I do think these more modern ESLS need a fair amount of welly. Not at all sure that most SET amps would really do then justice. However, like you, I'm interested in the possibility.

That's not necessarily the case.
The sensitivity values are similar for old and new Quads so they go similarly loud with the same amplifier power.
So for a user happy with the maximum loudness obtained from a Quad 57 driven by say a 20w/8R amplifier, they should also be happy with it driving modern Quads.

I think the issue is that you can push modern Quads harder, therefore you want to, feel you should.

But you don't have to :)
 
I think the SET thing is euphony, more correctly defined in an engineering context as distortion. And that's OK. Not many people are actually seeking no distortion, they're mostly seeking musical reproduction that sounds right to them, which is not necessarily the same thing at all. I like SETs, but if I had one it wouldn't be my only amplifier, just as I like LS3/5as but also have a pair of huge Tannoys.
That sounds about right to me. I have no good opinion on SET amplifiers because the only time I heard one was in a situation where I thought it was badly paired with 'speakers that were just not sensitive enough - although the owner was waxing lyrical about the sound.

This was an acquaintance who had built the SET amplifier himself. What I heard was Ella Fitzgerald's voice distorting on every loud part of the recording. A capture of the sound with a stereo pair of microphones that the system owner made and let me have showed clearly in an audio editor later that the poor little 2A3 valves were soft clipping an awful lot.

I have no doubt at all that the owner/constructor really liked what heard. But the experience illustrated well how different people are in what pleases them.
 
And what I was getting at was - are those spuriae relative to what was in the original signal or are the their own thing. Is it a sauce over the top or is it a flavour enhancer - salt/MSG that yes has its own character but is primarily (and if used sparingly) to enhance what is already there?
I don't want to go round in circles but what it does is plainly both related to the input signal and transforming it in its own distinct way. But for a number of reasons some people might think that that the transformation sounds nice in some situations. There are lots of different effects at work beyond harmonic distortion.
 
"I discovered that there was a consistent preference for this sort of characteristic in amplifiers over a range of distortion levels from about .01% to 1%. Somewhere below that, it was not usually heard - and above that it could be excessive."

That's why I felt that the Sony VFET amp dripped of honey. Regret selling it, but the bass was too weak.
 
I've only ever heard one SET amp, it sounded lovely with some material, solo acoustic stuff, but a bit lacking with others. The speakers were not a great match IMO. But will a SET amp with the right speakers play any sort of music or are they limited to particular types?
 
I think the issue is that you can push modern Quads harder, therefore you want to, feel you should.
But you don't have to :)

Too true, but not really in my case as I tend to listen at lower volumes nowadays. I always know when I exceed a certain level as my wife removes herself and her laptop from behind one 2905 and exits left to the kitchen. Besides, it still sounds good. Like the o.p., I do wonder what presentational change I would encounter with a lower (circa 20 w.p.c.?) SET amp, compared to my 100 w.p.c. push-pulls. I have zero experience of this former format so can only rely on others' experience. Not that I'm in a rush to change horses; it's just the inquisitive nature of our hobby.;)
 
Are 63s modern Quads? My hybrid GM75 / mosfet SETs drive them the best I have heard with around 22W I think
 
ps
there are valve amp designs that NOT SET that also sound quite beautiful
Try a Leben 300.


One thing an SET has which a push pull valve amp possibly doesn’t is that the transformer is operating at its most linear point, at low magnetic fields cheap transformers are non linear. A guy I used to work with pointed this out to me, he had designed his own transformers to get round this problem using radio metal in the core, he gave me the design but as radio metal is rarely used the MOQ is wince inducing as you have to buy about seven kilos of the stuff, it would cost about 1200 UKP for a pair of output transformers.
 
Your own build or a commercial product?

designed and built by and Australian friend/guru - mine are 20 years old now…but he still makes the occasional set exclusively for ESL owners even today in Oz :)
 
One thing an SET has which a push pull valve amp possibly doesn’t is that the transformer is operating at its most linear point, at low magnetic fields cheap transformers are non linear. A guy I used to work with pointed this out to me, he had designed his own transformers to get round this problem using radio metal in the core, he gave me the design but as radio metal is rarely used the MOQ is wince inducing as you have to buy about seven kilos of the stuff, it would cost about 1200 UKP for a pair of output transformers.

indeed - the transformers for mine took a while to get right when he first designed the amps, and are not cheap :)
 
I used SET mono amps (4 EL34 in parallel) to drive the upper half of Vandersteen 2Ci, with big Adcom 565s on the bottom. I thought that in this limited role they sounded very well.

But once I went to Magnepans, they were useless, sadly.
 
Much as I love current rig, I still miss my border patrol p20, it ended up dictating what I played as didn’t do rock, it tried, so lot of jazz and bb king.
I could go all EL34s but at that end of valve spectrum solid state class A get good.
I’m in slow process of building a quad system using esl63, whether it be ss or valve not certain yet, but prob quad two or similar after using 303 as stopgap. But it’s the full single panel single ended full romantic monty I’m after.
 
SET amplifiers do not have a singular sound so conversations about them can be difficult. I have lived in Hong Kong a mecca of audio gear. A dealer I often go to is an Audio Note dealer - arguably the king of SET amplifiers because they make more of them than anyone else. As such, I have been able to make direct comparisons. Audio Note uses various levels so level 3 amplifiers are Single Ended Triode and within that level are various SET amplifiers that use 2a3, 300B, 45, 211 output tubes. They all sound different from each other. So which you like will more or less depend on your taste and what you listen to and how sensitive your speakers are. The least of them I would probably take over any comparably priced Solid State amplifier. The Meishu Tonmeister 300B integrated I would take over any SS integrated from anyone. Albeit it's not cheap. Some other 300B SET amps have been described by dealers here as "Lady-Like" in that they soften the sound somewhat but this typically depends on the quality of the transformers. So 300B SET amps have a reputation for being good midrange amplifiers for singers and acoustics but not particularly good with rock and roll. Stereotypes like this get spread around on forums but again it's a lack of exposure IMO to better SET amplifiers. Audio Note at shows does try to ameliorate the stereotype by playing Nightwish, Rage Against the Machine, DIO, various Trance music at very stupid levels to illustrate what SET amps can really do with a decently efficient/sensitive speaker. The Meishu has a lot of Dynamic drive and bass depth and whack but a competing Cary or Line Magnetic 300B does not. They sound "Lady-like" and there are more soft SET amps out there than not.

As for the technology arguments - well SETs are not going to win - the measurements are geared for class A/B SS amplifiers - they test the amps at near full power - where SS measures their best and where SETs measure their worst - in other words, the tests are geared to make SS look better. SET amplifiers have linear distortion which means when you turn the volume up and up and up the distortion rises up and up and up. SS amplifiers often have distortion that is worse when the volume is in the tiny fractions of a watt and lower at 70-80% full power. So you often note that people say that they need to turn the system up for it to "come alive" and that is because the SS amp needs to be putting out some power - and combining them with low sensitive speakers that need power to also "come alive" you have certain systems that really only sound any good when played loud. The other thing to note is that a lot of measurements of amplifiers are actually never measuring a real input. They say see how good the distortion is 0.00001% but they are comparing the input only after the feedback loop has engaged. So the signal is not really the true unadulterated input but and sort of "fake input" with feedback to smooth out the actual input. Possibly why I was so shocked when I heard a Bryston Preamp and Power amp combination with phenomenal spec sheet numbers sound so muddy compared to a 10 watt SEP amplifier. I was there to buy the Bryston with the 20-year warranty and the bombproof measurements and 160 watts of power etc and I had to keep turning it UP to make things out and it sounded bass light and raggedy - the 10 Watt SEP amplifier (which only measures 4.2 watts per channel undistorted was clean and full bodies at low volumes not needing to be turned up to make things out and had better bass. Quiet in terms of noise floor as well. I gotta say back in 2003 it was a tough decision - a 10-watt amp with valves and a 2-year warranty from largely a no-name brand at the time over the 20-year warranty Bryston separates. I chose the SEP. And now in 2021, I can sell the amplifier for several hundred dollars more than I paid for it which can not be said about the Brystons.

The only technical arguments I have really seen for SET amplifiers are their simplicity and lack of error-correcting after the fact fixes (because the amps create errors in the first place and then need to be fixed). Logically that would affect the time domain.

From Audio Note (note they make SET amps so they have a bias here obviously)

"... all-transistor amplifiers sound poor for the simple reason that transistors are inferior amplifying devices. The word “semiconductor” really means what it says and it says it all, “half”-conductor, sonically this could be translated to mean half the signal! Which is really what it sounds like. Pure and simple, transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers. Likewise both the pentode or tetrode requires corrective feedback to lower the load sensitivity and improve bandwidth, they are less un-linear than transistors being high impedance devices that require matching from an output transformer. Thus they sound better when used well, especially when used single-ended or in pseudo triode mode by connecting the grids together. Pentodes and tetrodes are more efficient (give higher static power) and much cheaper than triodes, this price advantage is paid for in poorer linearity and therefore overall open loop power bandwidth and load stability, nature always gives with one hand and takes with the other!

Directly heated triodes on the other hand are highly linear amplifying devices, the directly heated triode is the original voltage amplifier, the first, only and still the best, it responds well to better circuits, components and materials, but they are less efficient and more expensive than pentodes and tetrodes. Thus they require efficient speakers, with power output being at a premium price."

There is more written about why Negative Feedback sounds poorer than amplifiers that eschew it.
https://d1b89e86-9572-4311-9f80-600...d/3e7c3b_fd90b2b629a145709f59efd9116c652c.pdf

Martin Colloms back when he was the measurements guru at Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/index.html

Peter van Willenswaard an engineer also writing for Stereophile Tubes do Something Special https://www.stereophile.com/features/357/index.html
 
I've only ever heard one SET amp, it sounded lovely with some material, solo acoustic stuff, but a bit lacking with others. The speakers were not a great match IMO. But will a SET amp with the right speakers play any sort of music or are they limited to particular types?

With the right loudspeaker, as in something with 98dB and above, basically a horn, a SET amplifier, also a SE Pentode and a SE Tetrode amplifier, should be able to play any type of music to provide enjoyment.
 


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