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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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I didn’t want to put it on the David Amess thread, but Angela Rayner’s ‘tory scum’ comment will turn out to be hugely damaging to Labour. We can argue about whether or not she had a point, but these comments should not have been made by a deputy party leader.

It just makes Labour even more unelectable in the eyes of the wavering Tory voter. Idiotic.
 
Yes, the Amess murder will unquestionably be used as a weapon by the right to shut-down free speech and ramp-up authoritarianism. Priti Patel was on Sky only a few moments ago muttering something about internet censorship and other measures. It is sickening that this murder is already being used as a political tool by the Tories with Labour as a willing lapdog. It is going to push us even further away from our basic freedoms.

PS Lisa Nandy on now actually agreeing with Patel’s argument for ramping-up state control and censorship of the internet.
 
I didn’t want to put it on the David Amess thread, but Angela Rayner’s ‘tory scum’ comment will turn out to be hugely damaging to Labour. We can argue about whether or not she had a point, but these comments should not have been made by a deputy party leader.

It just makes Labour even more unelectable in the eyes of the wavering Tory voter. Idiotic.

Humbug.

(PS - see what I did there?)
 
Yes, the Amess murder will unquestionably be used as a weapon by the right to shut-down free speech and ramp-up authoritarianism. Priti Patel was on Sky only a few moments ago muttering something about internet censorship and other measures. It is sickening that this murder is already being used as a political tool by the Tories with Labour as a willing lapdog. It is going to push us even further away from our basic freedoms.

PS Lisa Nandy on now actually agreeing with Patel’s argument for ramping-up state control and censorship of the internet.

I missed it, but Nandy's position after Jo Cox's murder was that people should not be able to act on social media in ways that they would be prosecuted for outside of it. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
 
Yes, the Amess murder will unquestionably be used as a weapon by the right to shut-down free speech and ramp-up authoritarianism. Priti Patel was on Sky only a few moments ago muttering something about internet censorship and other measures. It is sickening that this murder is already being used as a political tool by the Tories with Labour as a willing lapdog. It is going to push us even further away from our basic freedoms.

PS Lisa Nandy on now actually agreeing with Patel’s argument for ramping-up state control and censorship of the internet.
If we are talking about causing death, Patel’s recent move to absolve U.K. Border Patrol from criminal responsibility for causing deaths by towing migrant inflatables back into open sea, defines the nature of this minister and the government she is a member of.
 
I didn’t want to put it on the David Amess thread, but Angela Rayner’s ‘tory scum’ comment will turn out to be hugely damaging to Labour. We can argue about whether or not she had a point, but these comments should not have been made by a deputy party leader.

It just makes Labour even more unelectable in the eyes of the wavering Tory voter. Idiotic.
You think her comments lacked precision?
Thieves and murderers next time perhaps?
With figures?
 
I missed it, but Nandy's position after Jo Cox's murder was that people should not be able to act on social media in ways that they would be prosecuted for outside of it. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I don’t have any issue with that, but that isn’t what either Patel or Nandy were implying today. They were both laying into social media platforms and arguing for censorship as I understood it. As far as I’m concerned if someone sends a death or rape threat to Diane Abbott or whoever then the police should act against that person. The platform is blameless. It is no different to the air transmitting sound between people if the same threat was made in real life.

To put it another way if terrorist organisations such as Britain First, EDL, Al Quada etc utilise Facebook to spread their hatred then go after them, not the platform. To do otherwise is like blaming the supplier of the mic or PA system for the racial hatred at a KKK rally. Just dumb and an obvious excuse for the state to ramp up authoritarianism, monitor and shut down any criticism, accountability or dissent. We should not give the state this power. It moves us yet another step closer to China, Iran etc.
 
I didn’t want to put it on the David Amess thread, but Angela Rayner’s ‘tory scum’ comment will turn out to be hugely damaging to Labour. We can argue about whether or not she had a point, but these comments should not have been made by a deputy party leader.

It just makes Labour even more unelectable in the eyes of the wavering Tory voter. Idiotic.

Humbug.

(PS - see what I did there?)

Whether it's appropriate language for a (p*ssed) deputy leader to make (*), @NeilR is broadly correct. The fact is that it has already provided the hostile press with another stick to hit Labour with and to link it to this 'sort of thing', even though it's now seems to be more unlikely as facts emerge) is a golden opportunity to further stick the boot in. That link is already easier to make because the language in the media coming from politicians of all colours and the the political commentariat this weekend is about "coarsening of political discourse" and "social media death threats" so its all too easy to join the dots.

(*) Being drunk at a party conference is their call but to do so and not think that someone is there to record it is at best a lapse of judgement for someone who is followed by media. That said, it's not just Labour politicians that should be more careful with their words / behavior in public. Therese Coffey and some of the other yahoos at the Conservative conference spring to mind.
 
Whether it's appropriate language for a (p*ssed) deputy leader to make (*), @NeilR is broadly correct. The fact is that it has already provided the hostile press with another stick to hit Labour with and to link it to this 'sort of thing', even though it's now seems to be more unlikely as facts emerge) is a golden opportunity to further stick the boot in. That link is already easier to make because the language in the media coming from politicians of all colours and the the political commentariat this weekend is about "coarsening of political discourse" and "social media death threats" so its all too easy to join the dots.

(*) Being drunk at a party conference is their call but to do so and not think that someone is there to record it is at best a lapse of judgement for someone who is followed by media. That said, it's not just Labour politicians that should be more careful with their words / behavior in public. Therese Coffey and some of the other yahoos at the Conservative conference spring to mind.
They really don’t need any excuse to join these dots, they’ve been doing it since social media gave random members of the public the opportunity to call them ——holes. It’s just what they do and they won’t stop until public discussion of their actions is limited to professional politicians and pundits. And really it shows them at their most blackly cynical and hypocritical.

https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/status/1449618406710337536?s=21

Nandy, Hodges, all of these professional Callers for Civility in Politics have a hell of a lot more blood on their hands than Rayner.
 
They really don’t need any excuse to join these dots...

I'm not saying they do. It just helps the process.

You can argue about whose worst but a very visible act, such as Rayner's outburst, is more damaging when it comes to shaping opinion in the majority of the Electorate.
 
Seems like Rayner is being lined up by the right as the next leftie scapegoat to pin Labours decade of failure on.
 
I'm not saying they do. It just helps the process.

You can argue about whose worst but a very visible act, such as Rayner's outburst, is more damaging when it comes to shaping opinion in the majority of the Electorate.
It’s not even about who’s worst, it’s about the difference between an actual problem (bluntly, the press) and completely imaginary problems (people being rude on Twitter, politicians calling Tories what they are). Since the latter are imaginary problems it doesn’t actually make any difference whether they happen or not. If it wasn’t Rayner’s outburst it would be something else, it’s irrelevant.
 
If we are talking about causing death, Patel’s recent move to absolve U.K. Border Patrol from criminal responsibility for causing deaths by towing migrant inflatables back into open sea, defines the nature of this minister and the government she is a member of.
Nail on the head.

I was waiting for a bus and checking my iPhone when I saw that Amess had been murdered. I literally gasped in shock.

But before then, I had been haunted for most of the day by this piece of daytime television:

https://twitter.com/JeremyVineOn5/status/1448938098411311115
If you know you won't be rescued if your boat sinks then fair enough... it'll stop people trafficking
It's the combination of what she says and the way she says it (doubling down, when challenged) that does me in.

Literally arguing the merits of letting migrants drown as if there are two sides to the debate. Monstrous.

Sadistic fantasies about killing "our enemies" now form a central pillar of right-wing politics. And you don't have to go rooting around anonymous Twitter accounts to find them. They are mainstream, beamed into people's brains from the TV screen and splashed across the pages of the far-right press.

We are lost.
 
Literally arguing the merits of letting migrants drown as if there are two sides to the debate. Monstrous.

It is absolutely horrific and a step beyond even the now long-established Tory/Labour culture of allowing our mentally ill to freeze to death in shop doorways. I fear this trajectory hugely as I suspect it is a very deliberate and calculated strategy of dehumanisation and normalising state cruelty towards ‘others’ in advance of the impending climate catastrophe which will inevitably lead to mass global migration. Set the basic parameters now as billions will be on the move over the next 30 years.
 
It is absolutely horrific and a step beyond even the now long-established Tory/Labour culture of allowing our mentally ill to freeze to death in shop doorways. I fear this trajectory hugely as I suspect it is a very deliberate and calculated strategy of dehumanisation and normalising state cruelty towards ‘others’ in advance of the impending climate catastrophe which will inevitably lead to mass global migration. Set the basic parameters now as billions will be on the move over the next 30 years.
Absolutely. Worse: Covid was a dress rehearsal and the left/libs were as bad as the right, at least. There’ll be no opposition.
 
One of the overriding political objectives in Scotland is to permanently remove the Tories from the landscape, not just for a couple of electoral terms.
 
Worse: Covid was a dress rehearsal and the left/libs were as bad as the right, at least.

I could see a pretty clear right/left-liberal split on this one. Johnson/Trump etc proving utterly reckless, denying the issue, locking down too late, opening up too early, allowing the bodies to pile up, knowingly importing the virus into carehomes etc and even cynically profiting from the misery to the tune of £bns. The liberal/left nations taking a very clearly different path to the popularist right of UK, US, Brazil etc. Obviously Labour were all over the map here, but I expect nothing else from them. They are utterly clueless across a remarkably wide base.
 
I could see a pretty clear right/left-liberal split on this one. Johnson/Trump etc proving utterly reckless, denying the issue, locking down too late, opening up too early, allowing the bodies to pile up, knowingly importing the virus into carehomes etc and even cynically profiting from the misery to the tune of £bns. The liberal/left nations taking a very clearly different path to the popularist right of UK, US, Brazil etc. Obviously Labour were all over the map here, but I expect nothing else from them. They are utterly clueless across a remarkably wide base.
On borders specifically - and it's here that Covid has most to teach us about the way we're likely to deal with climate change - the left ditched internationalism for bad science and short term self-interest. It's been very depressing watching the remnants of the Corbynite left swallow the zero covid snake oil.
 
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