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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIV

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notaclue said:
This time next year, (a very hungry) Farage will be eating Brexiteer pie. Very fitting given that Brexit voters were his poodles...

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Nothing poodle like about me, that would be the LibDem fans and those who go out of their way to willingly buy into tory propaganda.

As for your friend Farage, I’ve hardly heard the bloke speak such is the lack of attention I give him. I would bet he has a much greater influence on you than he has on me.
 
SteveS1 said:
That's because your essay arrived after I had posted.

The use of the term minimum wage to illustrate low wage was widespread and it doesn't really matter that the EU had nothing to do with the UK's minimum wage, it had nothing to do with a whole raft of things it was blamed for. You may seek to call these separate arguments but that is not how they were presented.

Your argument that but for the availability of EU unskilled labour, UK companies would invest more money they haven't got in training and higher wages is not something that stands up. They will seek to fill those vacancies with non-EU labour and any higher costs will just fuel inflation. An economy will always rely on a plentiful supply of labour and making that difficult has real world consequences. Thinking that a few higher paid roles and that UK benefits culture will suddenly become motivated is a joke. It may have been lot of those voters that Brexit managed to energise, but that won't survive closer scrutiny when pressure is applied on them to take those jobs or lose benefits. Good luck with that.

I'm still unclear as to why you would choose to shackle UK business and limit them to some of the worst performing labour in the market. Something our competitors won't be constrained by.

As for the tired arguments about movement of labour, that has happened all around since the year frozen stiff. What kind of alternative to capitalism do you have in mind? That really is a separate discussion but not one I'd expect from you. Sitting in our little UK canoe while the bigger boats carry on moving labour to where it is required is not a serious option. Johnson and co and only pretend that the UK can defy gravity for so long and the decisions they are faced with remain the same.
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It hardly takes the brain of Burke or Goethe to work out that 'minimum wage' self-defines as 'low wage'. The UK minimum wage, which incidentally is at the top end of similar to that of France and Germany, had absolutely nothing to to with Brexit, and being such, is unlikely to have been 'blamed' on the EU anyway.

I haven't made an argument that UK businesses would invest better if starved of EU nationals, but its certainly possible that some might. I'm also intrigued to know why you think that non-EU imported labour would be 'more expensive' than EU imported labour - that seems to suggest that EU workers are routinely underpaid, whilst non-EU workers aren't, nonsense of course.

The model embraced by the EU, which is argued as a sort of neoliberal monetarist market capitalism, doesn't work very well, and presents as suppressing demand and increasing unemployment. GDP growth in Europe is well below that of the growth regions of the world, and most tellingly, the US, wages as a proportion of GDP are shrinking, living standards are static or falling, and poverty and inequality are increasing. This is of course true or even truer in some aspects of the UK, but across the board probably greatest across the eurozone, which has inequality built into its structure.

The UK, in leaving the EU, has an opportunity to embrace a different economic model. What that will be will depend upon the economic strategies of future governments. It seems to be the case that EU free labour movement rules have been enthusiastically embraced by UK businesses operating at the lower end of the market. Personally I can think of relatively few things more abhorrent and revolting than the mass production of the kind of chicken offered by downmarket chains such as Nandos, but my own feelings about that are less important than the clear fact that we are going to experience a greater or lesser degree of production and market 'swirl' as the UK's economy is realigned, perhaps to one where production is moved to labour, rather than labour to production. If that means that Nando's blotting-paper chicken is imported from Poland, Thailand or even, in bleach-rinsed and antibioticed form from the US or Australia, well I guess we'll need to get used to it. I'd rather see the stuff banned altogether, but that obviously wouldn't make me too popular with Nando's lovers, or indeed free market anti-authoritarians. In the meantime, we can get on with producing more of the kind of delicious, wholesome and nourishing Sutton Hoo free range coopies that I favour at £15 or more a shot, but perhaps at a slightly keener price!
 
eternumviti said:
It hardly takes the brain of Burke or Goethe to work out that 'minimum wage' self-defines as 'low wage'. The UK minimum wage, which incidentally is at the top end of similar to that of France and Germany, had absolutely nothing to to with Brexit, and being such, is unlikely to have been 'blamed' on the EU anyway.

I haven't made an argument that UK businesses would invest better if starved of EU nationals, but its certainly possible that some might. I'm also intrigued to know why you think that non-EU imported labour would be 'more expensive' than EU imported labour - that seems to suggest that EU workers are routinely underpaid, whilst non-EU workers aren't, nonsense of course.

The model embraced by the EU, which is argued as a sort of neoliberal monetarist market capitalism, doesn't work very well, and presents as suppressing demand and increasing unemployment. GDP growth in Europe is well below that of the growth regions of the world, and most tellingly, the US, wages as a proportion of GDP are shrinking, living standards are static or falling, and poverty and inequality are increasing. This is of course true or even truer in some aspects of the UK, but across the board probably greatest across the eurozone, which has inequality built into its structure.

The UK, in leaving the EU, has an opportunity to embrace a different economic model. What that will be will depend upon the economic strategies of future governments. It seems to be the case that EU free labour movement rules have been enthusiastically embraced by UK businesses operating at the lower end of the market. Personally I can think of relatively few things more abhorrent and revolting than the mass production of the kind of chicken offered by downmarket chains such as Nandos, but my own feelings about that are less important than the clear fact that we are going to experience a greater or lesser degree of production and market 'swirl' as the UK's economy is realigned, perhaps to one where production is moved to labour, rather than labour to production. If that means that Nando's blotting-paper chicken is imported from Poland, Thailand or even, in bleach-rinsed and antibioticed form from the US or Australia, well I guess we'll need to get used to it. I'd rather see the stuff banned altogether, but that obviously wouldn't make me too popular with Nando's lovers, or indeed free market anti-authoritarians. In the meantime, we can get on with producing more of the kind of delicious, wholesome and nourishing Sutton Hoo free range coopies that I favour at £15 or more a shot, but perhaps at a slightly keener price!
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Brexit will enable and accelerate a race to the bottom on most things - people have got used to cheap prices and therefore production will have to move. Many of those who voted for Brexit bought the idea that this was some sort of free hit, that all the things they didn't like would go and everything they liked would, err, remain. I expect the bravado to last for quite a while, nobody likes to admit they have goofed - but it will not change the inevitable and sooner or later it will dawn on enough people that something closer to what they had will be required.

At no point did I suggest that EU labour would be cheaper than non-EU labour, merely that replacing the former with the latter is not where many Brexit voters wanted this to go and yet it's inevitable - or face far more shortages and holes in services. Nobody on the Brexit side was prepared to be honest about that. A shortage is a shortage and just offering more pay will only add to the problems as existing staff move around, adding to employment and training costs for reduced benefit as trained staff then leave. Fewer overall vacancies will be filled without the ability to add to the pool available.
 
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Enfield boy said:
There's a hell of a lot of illegal activity re wages, conditions etc that isn't prosecuted, likely far more than is. There's so much of it that it is normalised, whether through enforced unpaid overtime, not being paid for activity necessary to perform the job or slave gangs. You originally said no-one is paid less than minimum wage, that is so wrong it's risible.
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You have taken my remarks out of context, and used it to make your false point. That's what's risible. As is abundantly clear if you read the whole post, I was referring to the situation described by Arkless, with regard to food manufacturing and the manufacture of £3 chickens and £1.09 milk. In that context it IS the case that nobody is paid less than min wage. I know, I see the rates in payroll.

Once again, you have found cases where people are breaking the law and suggested that this is the norm. That's risible.
 
stevec67 said:
You have taken my remarks out of context, and used it to make your false point. That's what's risible. As is abundantly clear if you read the whole post, I was referring to the situation described by Arkless, with regard to food manufacturing and the manufacture of £3 chickens and £1.09 milk. In that context it IS the case that nobody is paid less than min wage. I know, I see the rates in payroll.

Once again, you have found cases where people are breaking the law and suggested that this is the norm. That's risible.
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No doubt the Ocado payroll clerk sees legal rates of pay too, they don't tell the whole story it would appear. Macho management happens in many industries and rates of pay that, on the surface, appear above the minimum wage are often hiding unpaid overtime that makes real pay per hour lower. Perhaps it's just the drivers delivering the milk and meat that are shafted but I doubt it.
 
Enfield boy said:
No doubt the Ocado payroll clerk sees legal rates of pay too, they don't tell the whole story it would appear. Macho management happens in many industries and rates of pay that, on the surface, appear above the minimum wage are often hiding unpaid overtime that makes real pay per hour lower. Perhaps it's just the drivers delivering the milk and meat that are shafted but I doubt it.
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You'll believe what you want to believe but I know very well that the hourly paid staff in our place get min wage or better at standard time from the minute they click in at the front door to when they leave, less defined unpaid breaks as per the law. Overtime is x1.5 or x 2, plus a bonus for a full shift on Saturday. We actually have a staff retention programme in place, free meals etc, you don't run that and then pay rates below min wage.
 
eternumviti said:
I haven't made an argument that UK businesses would invest better if starved of EU nationals, but its certainly possible that some might. I'm also intrigued to know why you think that non-EU imported labour would be 'more expensive' than EU imported labour - that seems to suggest that EU workers are routinely underpaid, whilst non-EU workers aren't, nonsense of course.

The model embraced by the EU, which is argued as a sort of neoliberal monetarist market capitalism, doesn't work very well, and presents as suppressing demand and increasing unemployment. GDP growth in Europe is well below that of the growth regions of the world, and most tellingly, the US, wages as a proportion of GDP are shrinking, living standards are static or falling, and poverty and inequality are increasing. This is of course true or even truer in some aspects of the UK, but across the board probably greatest across the eurozone, which has inequality built into its structure.

The UK, in leaving the EU, has an opportunity to embrace a different economic model. What that will be will depend upon the economic strategies of future governments. It seems to be the case that EU free labour movement rules have been enthusiastically embraced by UK businesses operating at the lower end of the market.
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Was it not Thatcher that thoroughly embraced neoliberalism? As did the sons of Thatcher. It was not forced upon us by the EU. Professor Mark Blyth does describe the EU as neoliberal project, that sought to bring Eastern European wages to Western Europe for manufacturing. We manufacture very little, and export even less.

In the 1980s the UK Government removed legislation that ensured employers trained employees, ie apprenticeships etc. This over time has led to a skills shortage across many sectors, which in turn sees businesses take on skilled and educated immigrants. There has been little incentive for UK businesses to take on “indigenous” citizens and train them when skilled/educated workers can be taken on. Like for like European migrants have been better educated and more skilled than their UK peers.

This also symptomatic of a very poor education system. One that needs de-centralising (as in Finland) and one that needs to eradicate private schools. Free (or very cheap like most of Europe) university education would be a progressive and a beneficial move for the nation. A better educated population is a more productive population.

As for inequality built into the EU model.... in the 1970s the UK was the 2nd most equal country in Europe, now it is one of the most unequal if not the worst in terms of inequality.
 
In relation to the shortage of everything:

From a Home Office spokesperson: "The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system. Employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying from labour from abroad."

Not sure whether the government is shifting the blame onto Leave voters or doubling down on "F*** business".

 
There will be many more days of scapegoating everything bar our own choices. You have to worry when you read the comments sections under these articles, many haven't even done the basic calculations of vacancies v employable staff currently without jobs. The question isn't whether we need more people, that is blindingly obvious to all bar the fantasists, the question is where from.
 
SteveS1 said:
the question is where from
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Be careful with that. In the state I live in, for every four locals of any age, there is one legal foreign worker (Bangladeshi) and one illegal (Indonesian)
Their presence has depressed minimum wage to less than £2000 pa. The money that these people remit back to their home countries makes the currency weak. It cheaper to have slaves than to automate.

The UKs job shortages are a consequence of failure to invest in automation and the neoliberals would love to head further down the Asian cheap labour path
 
davidsrsb said:
Be careful with that. In the state I live in, for every four locals of any age, there is one legal foreign worker (Bangladeshi) and one illegal (Indonesian)
Their presence has depressed minimum wage to less than £2000 pa. The money that these people remit back to their home countries makes the currency weak. It cheaper to have slaves than to automate.

The UKs job shortages are a consequence of failure to invest in automation and the neoliberals would love to head further down the Asian cheap labour path
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Except that it isn't just the "neoliberals" who are used to low prices and adequately staffed services. That would be everyone. Trying to pretend that the economy has enough UK labour is dishonest, so is trying to pretend that the very people who feel their wages have been depressed won't bear the brunt of rising prices through higher employment costs.

If only life were that simple.
 
Global Britain is having a torrid time:

Biden slaps down Boris (again)
Liz failing to secure even a hint of a US trade deal
2000 Aussie-style trade deals needed to recover lost GDP post Brexit (BBC)
Boris Johnson’s Global Britain is exposed as impotent and friendless by Afghanistan (Guardian)
Incompetent, negligent, isolated, increasingly disliked – Raab may just be the perfect ambassador for ‘global Britain’ (Guardian)
Afghanistan fiasco shows the hollowness of Global Britain (FT)
Global Britain has become sell-out Britain (Telegraph)
Boris Johnson's global Britain is obsolete after US Afghanistan response (Independent)

Seems we are not in with the US anymore, or the EU for that matter. That leaves China. Rishi is keen.
 
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