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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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Brian said:
It was a clear insinuation of a position to me that is incorrect, as is the above.

To be clear yet again..
1. I have not at anytime supported what you call the tory vanity project. I have little time for hard remainers who wish to ignore democracy and who label others racist who disagree with them. Nor do I have any time for hypocrites. That is not supporting the ‘vanity project’.

2. I have not said anyone who does not support Labour is a tory enabler. I myself do not always vote for Labour, hardly ever have in fact, I vote tactically against the tories. However, in our 2 party FPTP system there does come a point when making it impossible for Labour to win seats is going to enable a tory govt. eg Scots turning to nationalism, 41 seats becoming 1 seat. Many people do understand that Labour winning nothing in Scotland means Labour is very unlikely to win a UK GE, thus it becomes more likely the tories will be govt. This has been said on this very forum by others and has passed without dispute. It helps enable a tory govt, just as those constituencies in England that did the full flip to tory for brexit reduced Labour seats. Hard to understand, I know.

3. I haven’t said much at all about Starmer. I’m not obsessed by the leader of any party, or even particularly interested because they come and go. I neither support nor don’t support Starmer. What I support are centre left policies such as the last Labour manifesto while recognising there a process is needed to get there now given we have moved so far to the right since 2010. It isn’t going to be like flipping a switch come 2024.

4. If the Labour party is moving permanently to the right it does not provide a way forward in the long term for centre left or even for centre ground politics. My understanding is those calling for the demise of Labour believe this move has already happened. In that case, the (inoffensive) question I asked some time ago is who can form a left wing party to replace Labour that can seriously challenge the tories. I seriously doubt all Labour MPs are right wingers. It’s intriguing how that question has caused you to become aggressive and unfriendly.

Perhaps these things genuinely are unclear to you. However, you spin too much and you lack civility so I won’t be bothering with a reply to anything else that somehow remains unclear to you. I’ve read this post back twice and my position is crystal clear. My guess is you still won’t understand any of this.
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Do you have a lodger?
 
TheDecameron said:
?
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frankie-howerd.jpg
 
ks.234 said:
That was not a snipe, it was a genuine question.

It was a question based on the fact that your politics are, to me, unclear. Your politics are unclear because you say that you don’t like the Tories, yet you are a very loud supporter of the Tory’s biggest vanity project, a project that has enabled and empowered the right wing politics that we live under today. Despite that you have said anyone who doesn’t support Labour is a Tory enabler.
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This is a corker- everyone else is accused of being a Tory enabler by someone who “hardly ever votes Labour” himself.
I have not said anyone who does not support Labour is a tory enabler. I myself do not always vote for Labour, hardly ever have in fact
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You’re a tory govt enabler, mate.
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it’s hilarious coming from an angry nationalist, tory brexit enabler.
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I would not be surprised if you are a tory enabler.
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Maybe you’re a tory enabler and a brexiteer?
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^

So you don’t understand tactical voting. Do you understand FPTP?

Nor did your scraping around the forum show that I’ve said anyone not supporting Labour is a tory enabler. You showed isolated examples of where my opinion is undermining Labour is actually helping the tory party. Maybe you can tell me why that is incorrect? The tories do it all the time. Why do you think they bang on that “Labour is economically inept”, that “AS is rife in Labour and Corbyn didn’t deal with it”. I could go on but these are about undermining Labour with the aim of helping the tories into govt. Happy for you to disagree, though.
 
Apart from semantics, what is the difference in meaning between saying someone ‘not supporting Labour is a Tory enabler’ and ‘my opinion is undermining Labour is actually helping the tory party’?
 
I’m afraid Brian you’re going to have to accept that if Labour want a seat at the decision making table in future they’re going to have to share it with the SNP. To not do so is enabling future Tory governments. If they’re clever they may be able to do this and preserve the Union. Your constant harping on about Scottish nationalism is as tone deaf as hoping to reverse Brexit in the immediate future. Either Labour find a way to work with the SNP, make devolution of countries and regions a cornerstone of their policy, or they have no chance of forming a government. They’re not going to do it by themselves.

Have you any better ideas, or are they secret too?
 
lordsummit said:
I’m afraid Brian you’re going to have to accept that if Labour want a seat at the decision making table in future they’re going to have to share it with the SNP. To not do so is enabling future Tory governments. If they’re clever they may be able to do this and preserve the Union. Your constant harping on about Scottish nationalism is as tone deaf as hoping to reverse Brexit in the immediate future. Either Labour find a way to work with the SNP, make devolution of countries and regions a cornerstone of their policy, or they have no chance of forming a government. They’re not going to do it by themselves.

Have you any better ideas, or are they secret too?
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It’s an idea but no serious UK party could enter into a deal with a party that is demanding a referendum that could split the UK. The moment the SNP gets its way the UK govt would collapse and we would require a general election. For the idea to work the SNP would have to drop that demand and as a single issue party that is unlikely. Has the SNP made any commitment to do that?

‘Constant harping’ is an interesting one. My ‘harping’ is to say to people that Scots turning to nationalism and their back on Labour to the tune of 41 seats becoming 1 seat makes it just about impossible for Labour to remove the tories. The content of your post appears to be in agreement with that, though the Scots nationalists and some others appear in denial, hence the ‘harping’.

I have no ideas of the way forward. Why would an idea on that be a secret?
 
The Tories have now moved to the left of Labour with their generous levelling up package. Those in the neglected northern constituencies like what they’re seeing and have dropped their Labour MP in favour of a Tory MP in dozens of constituencies. The people are sovereign. Every vote counted.
 
TheDecameron said:
The Tories have now moved to the left of Labour with their generous levelling up package.
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Any normal centre-left party would fight the corruption, hopelessly biased electoral system, sweeping authoritarianism, nationalism, xenophobia etc, but Labour are at one with the Tories here. All they had was the economy, and the Tories have stolen their clothes.
 
There is no centre left party in the UK, hence my harping on about which people among the current crop of MPs is of the centre left and who could form a new party. If such folk don’t exist then so be it, however, I doubt that is the case.

Others harping on ( clearly I’m not the only one who ‘harps’ on, just the one accused of it ) about Starmer isn’t going to remove the tories and neither is the wait for electoral reform. That just isn’t going to happen, the chance of that was thrown away by the LibDems in 2010 for a temporary sniff of power.

Pause for a moment to wonder where we would be now if the LibDems had demanded a referendum on PR in 2010 and it had gained a majority.
 
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