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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII

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Nick_G said:
I'm sorry Brian, but if you can't see how crazy that post looked, then how are we supposed to conduct a meaningful debate with you? And all because I made the observation that Theresa May was doing the wrong thing.
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It’s not crazy, Nick. You disagree, that’s all. The EU has behaved badly toward the UK since 2016, they have no respect for the fact we had a democratic referendum.

Theresa May was a remain supporter. I’ve seen somewhere that ~400 MPs were remainers at that time. If you want a proper discussion perhaps a good start will be an explanation of how so many chances of a soft brexit were missed with that many MPs supporting remain? My opinion is it was because most of them wanted to cancel the whole thing and pretend there was never a referendum. They wouldn’t settle for less and the price is Johnson.
 
CB, Your ukip video where you’d been getting your material from verbatim and which you put in the thread, had an interesting angle on China, didn’t it? Basically a member of the far right musing on the imagined security issues of the UK going it’s separate ways. it also had Tommy Robinson on there.
 
Brian said:
It’s not crazy, Nick. You disagree, that’s all. The EU has behaved badly toward the UK since 2016, they have no respect for the fact we had a democratic referendum.

Theresa May was a remain supporter. I’ve seen somewhere that ~400 MPs were remainers at that time. If you want a proper discussion perhaps a good start will be an explanation of how so many chances of a soft brexit were missed with that many MPs supporting remain? My opinion is it was because most of them wanted to cancel the whole thing and pretend there was never a referendum. They wouldn’t settle for less and the price is Johnson.
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I agree there were several chances to settle for a less hard Brexit, however ideological and egocentric decisions by some politicians in parliament - eventually enabled the hard-brexiteers to 'take back control'. The old saying "be careful what you wish for..." springs to mind.
 
DodgyEars said:
I agree there were several chances to settle for a less hard Brexit, however ideological and egocentric decisions by some politicians in parliament - eventually enabled the hard-brexiteers to 'take back control'.
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Theresa May is often described here (not least by Colin) as a remainer, but her red lines essentially scuppered all but the harder end of the Brexit options. There seem to be two possibilities argued for that:
1) she was trying to point out the folly of the hard Brexiteer stance but ended up painting herself into a corner; and
2) she was trying to appease the ERG wing of the party.

But given how authoritarian and tone deaf she was as Home Secretary, I’m not convinced by either of these. I wonder if she wasn’t trying to have it both ways, but was blind to the subtleties and implications of her red lines. Either way, she was no remainer in my book.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Theresa May is often described here (not least by Colin) as a remainer, but her red lines essentially scuppered all but the harder end of the Brexit options. There seem to be two possibilities argued for that:
1) she was trying to point out the folly of the hard Brexiteer stance but ended up painting herself into a corner; and
2) she was trying to appease the ERG wing of the party.
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By trying to go with the populst tide, she betrayed herself. No sympathy, the ridiculously unnecessary triggering of A50 before having any kind of plan together with the Lancaster House Red Lines cooked her goose and the UK's.
 
SteveS1 said:
By trying to go with the populst tide, she betrayed herself. No sympathy, the ridiculously unnecessary triggering of A50 before having any kind of plan together with the Lancaster House Red Lines cooked her goose and the UK's.
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Can't 'like' that but I agree with it. She was only a decent PM in comparison with what we have now; by all other standards she was right down the bottom of the barrel. The Tories seem very good at electing people who make lousy PMs. It's another undesirable facet of the blatant self-interest that is endemic to the party - the leader usually ends up as, either, the one who offends the various factions the least, or, the one the Party thinks will play well to the electorate; but never the one best suited to the role, for some reason. I blame Thatcher: not only did she divide the nation, she also sowed the seeds of division and factionalism in her own party.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Theresa May is often described here (not least by Colin) as a remainer, but her red lines essentially scuppered all but the harder end of the Brexit options. There seem to be two possibilities argued for that:
1) she was trying to point out the folly of the hard Brexiteer stance but ended up painting herself into a corner; and
2) she was trying to appease the ERG wing of the party.

But given how authoritarian and tone deaf she was as Home Secretary, I’m not convinced by either of these. I wonder if she wasn’t trying to have it both ways, but was blind to the subtleties and implications of her red lines. Either way, she was no remainer in my book.
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Theresa May campaigned for remain. Among other things she warned of damage to the economy, risks to security and the breaking up of the UK if the vote was to leave. That’s why, “Theresa May is often described here (not least by Colin) as a remainer,“.

3) ... It could well be she respected the outcome of a referendum even though it did not go the way she wanted.

You won’t understand that though so you have your ‘book’. I guess Nick and others will think I’m enabling the tories by being honest. LMAO.
 
That referendum was biased through misinformation. Everyone acknowledges it now. Admit it.

The way I see it, Brexit makes British people more divided than ever before and only brings trouble across Europe. No more easy commerce is the result between us because of the new outrageous taxes that Brexit imposed on each of us.

How bad the situation is! Come back and join the euro zone!
Get rid of the clowns that lead your government too in the process.
That would make good for everyone.
 
And now the thread is back to where Brian wants it to be. Still discussing the past and his hobby horse of the failure of remainers.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Theresa May is often described here (not least by Colin) as a remainer, but her red lines essentially scuppered all but the harder end of the Brexit options. There seem to be two possibilities argued for that:
1) she was trying to point out the folly of the hard Brexiteer stance but ended up painting herself into a corner; and
2) she was trying to appease the ERG wing of the party.

But given how authoritarian and tone deaf she was as Home Secretary, I’m not convinced by either of these. I wonder if she wasn’t trying to have it both ways, but was blind to the subtleties and implications of her red lines. Either way, she was no remainer in my book.
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No one can say whether she was really, deep down, a Remainer or a closet Brexiter. It is possible she doesn't know either.

My guess is May's ideology on the subject was shaped by her frustrations as the Home Secretary, her ambition and total opportunism. As long as it looked that Remain was going to carry the day, she pragmatically took a (minimum service) Remain stance, just enough to stay in with Cameron. After the shock of the referendum result and Cameron's departure, she saw opportunity for herself but realized she needed to get back in with the ERG headbangers, sharpish, to secure the party head position and, more importantly, hold on to it as PM. The Lancaster House speech was her way of trying to secure her position, and to hell with the consequences.

Awful person.
 
I can only assume Colin's fixation with May being a remainer is because he hasn't bothered to consider how those he now fawns over also voted. Sajid Javid, Ben Wallace, Matt Hancock, Robert Buckland, Gavin Williamson, Liz Truss, Grant Shapps, Robert Jenrick, Baroness Evans, Alun Cairns, Julian Smith and Alok Sharma were all remainers.

We are dealing with totally unprincipled people here, Johnson himself would have backed Remain had he seen that as the route to replacing Cameron. Instead he had yet another PM to undermine before that could happen.
 
TheDecameron said:
CB, Your ukip video where you’d been getting your material from verbatim and which you put in the thread, had an interesting angle on China, didn’t it? Basically a member of the far right musing on the imagined security issues of the UK going it’s separate ways. it also had Tommy Robinson on there.
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Hugh, only you remind us of the UKIP and Brexit parties, often with pictures. There were over 17 million people voted to bin off the EU and all votes were welcome.
 
Seventeen million well-informed people who knew what they were doing.
We have Macron for the same reasons here. Only idiots voted for him.
 
SteveS1 said:
I can only assume Colin's fixation with May being a remainer is because he hasn't bothered to consider how those he now fawns over also voted. Sajid Javid, Ben Wallace, Matt Hancock, Robert Buckland, Gavin Williamson, Liz Truss, Grant Shapps, Robert Jenrick, Baroness Evans, Alun Cairns, Julian Smith and Alok Sharma were all remainers.

We are dealing with totally unprincipled people here, Johnson himself would have backed Remain had he seen that as the route to replacing Cameron. Instead he had yet another PM to undermine before that could happen.
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Correct Steve, they needed a dose of democratic will of the people 'Get Brexit Done' to realign their thinking if they wished to survive as anything other than a back bench MP.
 
Unfortunately they are very big. But the demonstrators are idiots too, so…
They think that obliging people to get vaccinated is against the principles of our republic.
I say, people who don’t want to get their shots because they watched silly videos on YouTube and FB are irresponsible and gullible.
Macron will win in 2022 because of the other candidate, nothing more. He will be elected in disgust of Le Pen – a truly awful character.
 
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