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Which idler?

Tony L said:
Panzerholz is interesting. If I ever returned to a Garrard (unlikely) I’d be very tempted to use a Panzerholz top-plate in a Lorricraft-style squash-ball decoupled plinth. I suspect that would work really well.

I’d be very interested to see a pic of where you ended up with Lenco plinth design.
Click to expand...

There a lots of pics of Lenco/Panzerholz on the internet, showing excellent design, but maybe not so good too! And not only Lencos, I was commissioned by a dealer to design plinths for his SP10R turntables, I specified Permali products. There are a few 'do's and don'ts' with plinth design, but I'm willing to give advice, if needed. But you seem to have discovered the main criterion, thin (low mass) plinths, and I would only add the word 'damping'.

I would add the material Isophthalic polyester resin and granular bentonite. It can be cast, and is a lot less expensive than the engineered wood mentioned. At least one company makes (or used to make) these, run by a guy I used to work with. Wonder where he got the idea from? Again, a little advice is needed.
 
As with all things hifi the choice of construction , materials and detailing is dizzyingly wide.
As my system shows I dislike damping and shielding and avoid both when possible.
I prefer trying to enhance musical energy, not squish it.
The lightweight approach appeals, maybe try some oem stillpoint fixings, hate sorbothane, maybe with the pre cast chassis type using resin or panzerholtz?
Must go back and do some heavy duty research on Lenco heaven.
 
I've heard a lightweight Panzerholz plinth (on an SP10) and wasn't that impressed ... it felt, well, lightweight, though it may have been the lowish-mass tonerarm that was the main culprit, but altogether it brought out the worst tendencies of the SP10, which can sound like an 80s CD player - inconsequential and boring - if you aren't careful.

I also heard a plinth on a tricked out, stupendously expensive Garrard 301 that incorporated resin and bentonite, that I thought was a bit dark, sluggish, constrained. Again, too many variables to identify the precise culprit, but I resolved to go down neither route on hearing these.

Panzerholz to my mind isn't about damping in the way you might think about a damping function in a tonearm, or with icky sorbothane, but rather about providing a platform where both any resonance from the record/cartridge/tonearm/mat inferface, and any residual noise from the motor unit itself, dissipate to silence in a way that do minimal damage to the signal. It seems to me it does that better than any other material I've tried, from cherrywood to birch ply to slate.

I think with an idler (at least with the TD124) there are two main schools of thought: lightweight, and high mass. Having tried both I'm firmly in the (very) high mass camp ... I have heard TD124s in lightweight Ortofon-type plinths complete with fresh rubber mushrooms make very sweet music, but I personally think they will never deliver on the motor unit's full potential in that configuration.
 
montesquieu said:
... Panzerholz to my mind isn't about damping in the way you might think about a damping function in a tonearm, or with icky sorbothane, but rather about providing a platform where both any resonance from the record/cartridge/tonearm/mat interface, and any residual noise from the motor unit itself, dissipate to silence in a way that do minimal damage to the signal. It seems to me it does that better than any other material I've tried, from cherry wood to birch ply to slate.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I disagree. Panzerholz is all about damping. It has the highest damping factor of any material which is available outside of a laboratory. What you describe is the way it works, like any material damping. Dissipation of energy, and in the case of Panzerholz, very quickly, too.

Frizzy said:
... I prefer trying to enhance musical energy, not squish it...
Click to expand...

enhancing musical energy is surely 'sound art' by another name. That is, taking a recorded music signal and changing it for a specific purpose. But that is not hifi, where the goal is (or was) to reproduce, as faithfully as possible, the original sound. This is where disagreements begin, as different people have different goals: hifi or sound art.
 
Helen Bach said:
I'm afraid I disagree. Panzerholz is all about damping. It has the highest damping factor of any material which is available outside of a laboratory. What you describe is the way it works, like any material damping. Dissipation of energy, and in the case of Panzerholz, very quickly, too.
Click to expand...

'Quickly' is the point - when people talk about damping they often mentally reference sorbothane or silicone in a tonearm, when what the panzerholz is doing is very quickly getting rid of resonance, but not in the soggy, slow-moving way you get from pliant materials.

What you hear is 'quiet', not 'damped' in the sense of a room overdamped by a surfeit of thick carpet and soft furnishings. What is dissipated is motor resonance, and any misbehavior at the playing end. What comes through is a better sense of room acoustics, fine expression, timbral cues. I was actually gobsmacked when I fired up the plinth (in fact UK-sourced Permali rather than Panzerholz, which has more, thinner layers per cm, though the measurements are similar). The Permali is certainly not damping the reproduced signal in any way.
 
I hope this won't be considered as too far outside the scope of this thread, but although I do not possess the skills necessary to construct a plinth for my proposed PTP6 build, I am very interested in reading everything conected to plinth design and materials.
Recent reading has led me to consider whether the use of a shallower plinth would give better results, however, I have also read that 'Panzerholz', or similar materials are no longer easily obtainable in this now isolated country. May I ask if this is actually the reality?
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
what we are discussing is material damping, and not any other. It's job is to reduce (exponentially) any vibrations which excite it, such as room vibrations, floor vibrations and vibrations from the turntable. It has to do this very quickly because it is being excited by a 'harmonic' input, that is vibrations from music. Panzerholz and Permali have damping factors above 0.4, a figure which has been suggested as 'good enough', any higher produces diminishing returns, any less and it is not really fit for purpose.

The damping of the plinth, as you say, does not (cannot) damp the stylus in any way, so if people report that 'damping kills the sound' they must look to other causes, or realize that damping has reduced those vibrations which cause the 'false' excitement in the first place - although some systems might need it!
 
mjkelshaw said:
I hope this won't be considered as too far outside the scope of this thread, but although I do not possess the skills necessary to construct a plinth for my proposed PTP6 build, I am very interested in reading everything conected to plinth design and materials.
Recent reading has led me to consider whether the use of a shallower plinth would give better results, however, I have also read that 'Panzerholz', or similar materials are no longer easily obtainable in this now isolated country. May I ask if this is actually the reality?
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
Click to expand...

Panzerholz - literally 'tank wood' - is a German product, a brand name for a special type of plywood known as densified wood, impregnated in the manufacturing process with phenolic resin and put under enormous pressure, which is literally bullet proof.

There's a thread here on another forum (mods - please let me know if this is an issue and I'll edit) that has pics of my plinth build, if anyone is interested.

You'd have to ask a timber/plywood supplies shop whether they are importing it, but there is a UK made equivalent - Permali - which is made the same way and has very similar specification (though with finer grain and thinner sheets). That's what is in the core of my plinth. Both are pretty expensive, and both very hard to machine compared to ordinary timber or plywood. I believe there is a direct German competitor for Panzerholz called Lignostone. I'd be surprised if there weren't many others in other geographies, it's very heavy stuff to move around.


Helen Bach said:
The damping of the plinth, as you say, does not (cannot) damp the stylus in any way, so if people report that 'damping kills the sound' they must look to other causes, or realize that damping has reduced those vibrations which cause the 'false' excitement in the first place - although some systems might need it!
Click to expand...

Totally agree!
 
mjkelshaw said:
I hope this won't be considered as too far outside the scope of this thread, but although I do not possess the skills necessary to construct a plinth for my proposed PTP6 build, I am very interested in reading everything conected to plinth design and materials.
Recent reading has led me to consider whether the use of a shallower plinth would give better results, however, I have also read that 'Panzerholz', or similar materials are no longer easily obtainable in this now isolated country. May I ask if this is actually the reality?
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
Click to expand...

I picked up two pieces of panzerholz from Iansr this morning. He has a stack of it but it seems to be going down well. There is a thread for the sale of it over in the diy room.
 
Thank you both (Montesquieu, Chops 54) for your replies.
The link to ''What's Best' will require some 'patient reading' on my behalf :).
With hindsight, I should have asked this question in 'DIY', but unfortunately it is a section that I rarely peruse, and as a result it didn't immediately 'spring to mind'.
Obviously, I shall have to amend my Pink Fish 'required reading' habit to include the 'DIY' section.
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
No probs Mike. I sometimes post my diy efforts in other rooms as do others. PFM isn’t rigid like some forums are :)
 
Ref: "Ta for all that. I looked a Lenco heaven, but it assumes a level of knowledge I don’t have yet".

Bloody Nonsense (respectfully)!
If I can, anyone can.
The more advanced / technical builds maybe, but suggest start with a GL75, service the motor and bearing. This is easy to do and lenco heaven has step by step photo's with instructions of how to do this. The standard arm can be used, but change the v-blocks (again step by step instructions) and firm up the droopy back end with some tooth floss and superglue (bit heath robinson but it works) and your good to go.

Got a couple of other thoughts and maybe some photo's later ...
 
Here's some more thoughts:

Lenco’s:
If you get stuck or need any help, drop a pm here as lots of guys know about Lenco’s and the Lencoheaven guys are super friendly and helpful.

Agree the Heavy platter ones are the ones you want. Good performance and great value for money.

GL78 bit more tech and complex. I’d go for a 75 or 70 (either will do depending on aesthetics).

I’m not a fan of the standard 75 arm particularly (but some are). It’s OK though with the above tweak.

I’m not a fan of the standard 70 arm particularly, but lots are.

If you want to go drop in tonearms replacements, do a search:
75: Jelco ??? and the Ortofon AS212 especially have lots of fans.

70: AT1005 Mk2 is a drop in replacement -ish. This is an amazing and hugely under-rated arm (IMO). Currently using one on a 75, and have used one before on a 70 also.

Lenco’s fun and easy to work on.

Great build quality.

Can go for simple low cost plus arm and cartridge, or will take a far better arm and cartridge.

Can upgrade Bearing and Chassis (PTP also).

Money spent on upgrades and on the build itself is probably unlikely to be got back, as they seem to be seen as a DIY brand (even though the are great build quality),

By the time you add a Superbearing and PTP chassis, you are into 401 price range, and latter will be a better investment. Do the Lenco route if you want the pleasure of the build.

I compared a 401 (unserviced) vs Lenco PTP / Superbearing in same plinth and arm and they were similar and good in lots of good ways.

If you like the ‘Idler sound’, I think you’ll be happy with either.

Beware Lenco’s can get very addictive!

You might want to budget for two: the one your listening too, and the one which is the next project!

Here’s a couple:
I have links for these somewhere if you want.

L70 / AT1005 mk2 (with quit a lot of tweaking):

GL75 with PTP 5 Chassis, twin plinth – upper corrian and ply, lower ply and poly resin bentonite. Arm was prob an ATP-12t.

Hope that inspires. If you want any help or advice, by all means drop me a pm, happy to help.
Good luck!
 
Mmm - photo's not showing here.
I'm now trying to use google - photo's to host (so i can bin photobucket shop which i'm still paying for).

If i click on the image and press share - create link, I get these:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AWYaTDtERA6nVGk78

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nasu9DdeuRRj42Pq5

Inserting this into the image icon above > image URL would I have hoped worked, but only shows a tumbnail photo with a big cross in it?
AWYaTDtERA6nVGk78


nasu9DdeuRRj42Pq5


Please can anyone teach me how to do this, as I've a future project that some of you guys may also be interested in?
Cheers.
 
itskeith said:
Here's some more thoughts:

Lenco’s:
If you get stuck or need any help, drop a pm here as lots of guys know about Lenco’s and the Lencoheaven guys are super friendly and helpful.

Agree the Heavy platter ones are the ones you want. Good performance and great value for money.

GL78 bit more tech and complex. I’d go for a 75 or 70 (either will do depending on aesthetics).

I’m not a fan of the standard 75 arm particularly (but some are). It’s OK though with the above tweak.

I’m not a fan of the standard 70 arm particularly, but lots are.

If you want to go drop in tonearms replacements, do a search:
75: Jelco ??? and the Ortofon AS212 especially have lots of fans.

70: AT1005 Mk2 is a drop in replacement -ish. This is an amazing and hugely under-rated arm (IMO). Currently using one on a 75, and have used one before on a 70 also.

Lenco’s fun and easy to work on.

Great build quality.

Can go for simple low cost plus arm and cartridge, or will take a far better arm and cartridge.

Can upgrade Bearing and Chassis (PTP also).

Money spent on upgrades and on the build itself is probably unlikely to be got back, as they seem to be seen as a DIY brand (even though the are great build quality),

By the time you add a Superbearing and PTP chassis, you are into 401 price range, and latter will be a better investment. Do the Lenco route if you want the pleasure of the build.

I compared a 401 (unserviced) vs Lenco PTP / Superbearing in same plinth and arm and they were similar and good in lots of good ways.

If you like the ‘Idler sound’, I think you’ll be happy with either.

Beware Lenco’s can get very addictive!

You might want to budget for two: the one your listening too, and the one which is the next project!

Here’s a couple:
I have links for these somewhere if you want.

L70 / AT1005 mk2 (with quit a lot of tweaking):

GL75 with PTP 5 Chassis, twin plinth – upper corrian and ply, lower ply and poly resin bentonite. Arm was prob an ATP-12t.

Hope that inspires. If you want any help or advice, by all means drop me a pm, happy to help.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
Hi Keith,
If you could post the links that would be very much appreciated. Like the OP I’m considering getting a Lenco. Unlike him I would be a bigger novice.
Which model is your preferred Lenco?

Cheer,
Peter
 
Pkay said:
Hi Keith,
If you could post the links that would be very much appreciated. Like the OP I’m considering getting a Lenco. Unlike him I would be a bigger novice.
Which model is your preferred Lenco?

Cheer,
Peter
Click to expand...
Hi Peter

The L75 or GL75 are the decks to go for (they are identical, just that one is badged Lenco & the other Goldring Lenco). They are the most popular Lenco decks so benefit from availability of parts, information & knowledge to service & improve them

As for links, if you go onto the LencoHeaven homepage & open the forum titled Lenco Guides you will find all the information you need to service the deck & if you get stuck there are plenty of knowledgeable folk both on the LencoHeaven site & on here who will be happy to help.

TS
 
Some interesting comments on plinth mass above. I got a 301 when prices were climbing but hadn't yet gone crazy. I have a very similar plinth to the one TonyL was using (same template, different type of slate FWIW). I never felt I was losing anything, but I never tried anything else and being more music than HiFi, once I had something I liked I simply stopped fiddling. In the context of the open plinth/BBC comparison, I also went down the super rigid path for my Tannoy cabs too so this may just be a matter of taste. I'm starting to consider new cabs (larger, possibly GRF or maybe Lockwood Major style if I can find a builder) and then might be a good time to reconsider the plinth question.
 
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